Author Topic: .444/.350 Rem Mag Wildcat? (Read 1841 times)

lgm270 · « **on:** January 02, 2005, 01:00:24 PM »

The .350 Rem mag case has been wildcated up ( .366, .375, .416, 458) and down (.264, .284, .308, .323, 338) , but I've never heard of necking one up to .429" (i.e. 44 caliber).

One problem would seem to be the lack of suitable heavy jacketed bullets. I think 400 grains would be about optimal, but you'd have to cast or swage them yourself. A 400 grain .429" gas checked cast bullet at 2,000 fps would be a cool load.

Does anyeone else have any thoughts on this one? Is it worth doing or should I just stick to .416" or .458" for which suitable jacketed bullets and cast bullet molds already exist?

Ramrod · « **Reply #1 on:** January 02, 2005, 01:51:25 PM »

I agree that .44 cal wildcats based on any case have never been popular because of the lack of suitable bullets. It is probably not worth doing. Marlin's introduction of the .444 back in the 60's only managed to breathe new life into the almost dead .45-70, once the shortcomings of .44 bullets at rifle velocities became apparent.
The .416 sounds like an interesting project.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 02, 2005, 02:05:44 PM »

Quote from: Ramrod

I agree that .44 cal wildcats based on any case have never been popular because of the lack of suitable bullets. It is probably not worth doing. Marlin's introduction of the .444 back in the 60's only managed to breathe new life into the almost dead .45-70, once the shortcomings of .44 bullets at rifle velocities became apparent.
The .416 sounds like an interesting project.

Ramrod, I don't think the 45-70 was ever close to dead. It has always been a strong and well sought after round. I think the 444 came to play because something new was needed to get the power up compared to factory loads. Most 45-70 factory loads are loaded for the old Springfield trap doors and the other gun that can't handle much pressure. The 444 at that time was pushing a 44 cal bullet faster and flatter than the factory loaded 45-70's. :-)

lgm270, I would say just stick to .416" or .458".

JOE MACK · « **Reply #3 on:** January 02, 2005, 02:16:52 PM »

You might check on SSK's wildcat, the .41Whammy. It's the .350 necked up to .411. J.D. started it out in the XP-100s, but says it's fine for the Encore.

ssdave · « **Reply #4 on:** January 02, 2005, 07:10:11 PM »

For a good .429 wildcat, consider the 429 express, aka the 444 rimless. It's a 30-06 blown out straight, headspacing on the mouth. It's an interesting cartridge that I came up with a few years ago, and built initially using a short, slow twist carbine barrel. I later rebarreled with a longer, heavier, 14 twist douglas barrel to use heavier bullets. A few years after I built mine, I corresponded with Ken Howell about it, and he had done essentially the same thing earlier than me. Only difference is his cartridge is about .25 inch shorter. It's in his book on cartridge conversions.

It's a cheap wildcat, as you can chamber with a 444 marlin reamer, and use standard 444 dies. When you chamber, cartridge length is not critical, as you simply trim the brass to a zero headspace in the rifle after the chamber is completed. I fireform the brass by using the claw extractor to hold it against the bolt face, and then trim to length, size, and chamfer the mouth.

Mine is made on a mauser action, and it's an excellent hard hitter. It pushes a 300 grain bullet at 2400 fps, at a pressure of about 50,000 psi.

It feeds and functions fine in an unmodified mauser. I lengthened the chamber from the 444, as the 30-06 brass will let you do that. I have a 444 reamer without a rim cutter, so I can chamber any length that i want.

It's been a fun rifle to build. I'm completing a custom stock for it at the moment. I made it up from a whittled down military stock, many pieces of scrap wood glued on, and a lot of bondo. It'll be sent off to the stock duplicator to do in heavy, straight grain walnut. The rifle was sighted with a 4 leaf express sight and the stock was designed for a very straight comb dropping towards the front, to reduce felt recoil. I added a european style cheekpiece to help locate my face precisely in relation to the sights, and added a functional pistol grip. It was interesting to experiement with the stock until when I bring it up, it aligns the sights with my eyes flawlessly every time. I've fired it quite a bit, but the bondo wood interface is starting to show some cracking, so time to get the real stock made up.

Best of luck,
dave

lgm270 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 03, 2005, 01:44:43 PM »

Dave. Thank you for your very imformative post. I remember reading something before on this web site about a rimless .444 based on a .30-06 case. I think the creater called it the .444 Mauser, chambered, as it was, in a milsurp M-98.

Apparently you load the full length of the .30-06 case which is 2.494 as compared to .2.225 for the 444 Marlin. Do you have any unual problems with split necks, etc., resulting from blowing out a .308 case neck to .430?

What kind of fire forming loads do you use?

What barrel length?

Personally I was contemplating a ctg. length of about 2.225 and would make cases by using a .444 Marlin Trim Die and hacksawing off the excess brass. Granted I would have less powder capacity, but I don't think that's necessarily a problem. I'm not trying to squeez out every last fps, given the limitations of cast bullets anyway, but just to have a nice, big bore .44 cal rifle.

I was considering a 22 " barrel. I can shorten it to 20" if I want.

Do you crimp the bullets? Does this effect headspacing?

Do you have any problems with leading with this caliber?

What practical uses does this caliber have, in addition to being an interesting project?

It strikes me that your round is kind of a lengthened .44
Automag. The .44 Automag was a proprietary handgun round for the now discontinued Auto-Mag pistol, a rotary bolt, recoil operated semi-automatic pistol offered in ".44 Magnum" ie. the .44 Automag. Would .44 Automag dies work in loading your wildcat? Just wondering.

lgm270 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 03, 2005, 02:32:58 PM »

Dave: A follow up on 400 grain .429 jacketed SPs. There are not any. Beartooth makes a likely looking 405 grain cast, Gas checked bullet. but nobody makes a Jacketes SP in .429 heavier than 300 grains, which is a little short on sectional density for me.

I like the idea of a 400 grain .429" JSP. The closest I was able to find were bullets for the .404 Jeffrey manufactured by Swift (A-frame) and Woodleigh. They are .423" diameter. A bit undersized. The 400 grain bullet has a SD of .319. That's more like it. Go to the Swift web site and take a look at that 400 grain sptizer A-Frame. Very cool looking.

Is it feasible for me to swage a 400 grain .429 JSP?

ssdave · « **Reply #7 on:** January 05, 2005, 06:10:46 PM »

I just typed a long and technical reply, with the balistics, powley calcs, etc. and it got lost on trying to post it. I'll try again later.

Basically, I said that the 444 marlin case is capacity challenged with large bullets, and you need a lot of capacity to get a fast enough powder to burn in the large straight case.

The availability of bullets is tough, but I'm satisfied with the 300 grain sierras, and don't use cast, as I can do that with my 45-70, 45-90, 40-65, 50 alaskan, or 50-110.

I'll try to repost when I have more time to retype. Next time, I'll copy and save before hitting the submit.

dave

lgm270 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 06, 2005, 03:29:05 PM »

Dave: Thanks for the effort. I have done the same thing (lost text). I am gratful for your response and look forward to reading more of your very imformative prose.

Best,
LGM270

Buckeye · « **Reply #9 on:** January 12, 2005, 01:40:22 PM »

I'd like to see a 416WSM ! Maybe see, but not own !