Author Topic: Hildy ?  (Read 1072 times)

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Offline Broken Scope

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Hildy ?
« on: January 22, 2005, 09:23:17 AM »
Hildy Ive read some of your loads with the 75 vmax and curious if you had any pressure signs with the 25-06 loads at that speed? thanks

Offline Hildy

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Hildy ?
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2005, 11:02:06 AM »
My primary V-Max load is 56.5 grains of IMR 4350 in a Winchester casing and a CCI 200 primer.

Upon examining a fired case, the primer is not flattened at all. This can possibly be due to the hardness of the CCI 200's. Also, as with all loads in many guns, there is a slight expansion ring above the rim about an 3/8".

I have had the action pop open on I believe 2 shots before with the gun but this was only due to oil on the latch...after I cleaned it with denatured alcohol this never again happened.

Now, before using this load, I would highly recommend going 5% under in powder charge. I read a load in a Lyman reloading manual that was similar to this and it was a max load, FWIW.

However, with a bolt gun, you can load the 25-06 up to 3,850fps with this bullet. Never had any bullet disinigration problems with it either.

The gun will print under 1 inch with the load.

Offline Broken Scope

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Hildy ?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2005, 05:38:02 PM »
thanks for the info. The reason I asked is most of my primers look  semiflat even when I lower the charge.It may be the fed primers that I use. A friend recommended H 414,he said it had a lower cup pressure than the 4350. I will try the cci primers.

Offline Hildy

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Hildy ?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2005, 03:23:06 AM »
Yes, CCI primers (200 atleast) are much harder than alot of primers I've used. CCI 200's are nickel colored so they are obviously a different material, a harder one.

The load book says that my load should run about 56,000 psi.

Heck, I have factory loads that have flattened primers in my 06 such as Federal 90g Sierra BTHP.

EDIT: typo

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2005, 06:41:53 AM »
Hidy

Quote
The load book says that my load should run about 56,000 CUP.


I doubt very much that any loading book would recommend that kind of pressure.  which is 67000psi.

B.Scope

Quote
A friend recommended H 414,he said it had a lower cup pressure than the 4350.


That is wrong and out context. The only way you get less cup (copper unit pressure) is using less powder.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Hildy

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Hildy ?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2005, 07:56:32 AM »
OOPS

My bad, I meant to say 56000 psi, NOT CUP. :oops:

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2005, 10:54:45 AM »
Hildy.
That is better. If you throttle the Handi down to about 51000psi or 45400 cup. The rifles do really well and the brass will last longer since there is less case stretching with more positive ejection and maybe better accuracy.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Broken Scope

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Hildy ?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2005, 11:25:14 AM »
I think I will try a slower powder.I have some imr7828 on hand but I dont see it recommended for light bullets. That 414 sure was fast.I may have to trade my 7mmstw sendero for a 25-06 sendero.

Offline Donaldo

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Hildy ?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2005, 05:45:12 PM »
Sendero?..... Is that a new Handi? :lol:
Luke 11:21

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2005, 06:22:45 PM »
Donaldo.
Yah, these guys look for info on bolt guns loads and don't have the courtesy to say so. This is a Handi Rifle forum, BC and other H&R/NEF firearms and when questions come up you assume they pertain to Handi rifles and treat them accordingly.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Broken Scope

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Hildy ?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2005, 06:31:11 AM »
Fred the ? was referred to handi's. I was just stating that I may get a 25-06 sendero to go with my handi 25-06 . If you was referring to me about courtesy on bolt action loads I dont have any books that say handi loads, lever action loads ect. If I new it all I wouldnt be on the forum asking questions. I had no Idea these rifles needed to be downloaded until I heard on this forum. You recommend using slower powder as being better for the handi. The H 414 and H 4350 have close to the same cup. I know that the faster powder reaches the peak cup quicker. Is this why?

Offline Mac11700

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Hildy ?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 07:26:57 AM »
Broken Scope:

Any rifle you reload for...you have to start below the maximum and work up in small incremints...not all Handi's have the same problem as what Fred's did..some can take higher pressures and do just fine...while I've owned bolt guns that couldn't be loaded to the max for 1 reason or another...each rifle is different...what my be max in mine...might be way over in yours or possible under...it all depends...there are genneralities....in all of this...but nothing is exact since there are differences in each rifle...changing components on any given load will also change your results...using a different primer can result in  much higher pressures and give you eractic results...same as substituting a different bullet of the same weight...because it may have a longer bearing surface than what was used in the loading data...can result in higher pressures than your rifle can shoot...this is why they always state to reduce by a mimnimun of 5% and work up from there...and if you are substituting different components...you really need to start at lower level than 5%...more like 7% or 8%...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2005, 01:56:16 PM »
Broken S.
Quote
I know that the faster powder reaches the peak cup quicker. Is this why?


Yes. CUP is a system to measure pressure in a chamber. and it is confusing when both PSI and CUP are used in the same loading book.

It is assumed that either is measured in the center of a case but that not always done, This is one reason why pressure readings from different sources vary a great deal. Some German sources measure pressure in the neck. Of course a strain gage can be attached anywhere.

This is why we need to start with a lesser powder charge like Mac says 5-10% of what the book says. Otherwise you may compare apples with oranges.

In the 25-06 I consider a  max load about 60kpsi in a good bolt action that is ok. But individual loads and guns can easily vary 10%.

So when I recommend a 51kpsi you are 15% below max in a 25-06. now when you consider a plus or minus 10% in that loading you can easy reach 56Kpsii  with that load. So a 15% margin is not being too conservative.

Also remember values in loading books are also averages. So when loading a Handi I like to maintain that safety factor. Not just for the reason  of safety but for accuracy that comes from lower vibration and the lesser strain/uplift  on the latch.

The reason I recommend a slow burning powder for the Handi is besause it has longer and and lower pressure spike. Which means lower chamber pressure but overall longer pressure duration. The later will give you increased velocity with overall lower pressure, while a faster burning powder does most of it in the chamber. Not very benficial in a Handi.

A slower buring powder also has abetter case fill ratio, which will give you more uniform ignitition. We been through all this before and the concept is very basic. Hope this makes some sense.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline handirifle

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Hildy ?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 03:12:34 PM »
fred
everything I've read says there is no formula to compare CUP pressures directly in PSI.  How are you getting your numbers?

Quote
Hidy

Quote:
The load book says that my load should run about 56,000 CUP.  


I doubt very much that any loading book would recommend that kind of pressure. which is 67000psi.


I realize the above example was a misunderstanding, but just wondering how you did your calculations.
God, Family, and guns, in that order!

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 03:35:38 PM »
handirifle.

Sorry about that.
PSI= (1.516xcup)-17902

This is a very strange formula, but it works reasonable well.
It it not usable with low cup values as in pistols and shot guns.
Do some samples and you will see. I have a graph somewhere to find out the limit. See quickdtoo post

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=50375&highlight=cup+conversions

I don't like CUP
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Hildy

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Hildy ?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2005, 03:51:09 PM »
Man, I feel important with all these posts in a thread entitled 'Hildy', my username. (Actual name Erik, FWIW) :)

There is some pretty good info in here though, that's for sure!!

Offline Broken Scope

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Hildy ?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2005, 06:53:55 PM »
Hildi , Dont brag about your name used in the post. I meant to say Fred, just kidding. Thanks guys for the patience. I dont start at max loads so you will know. Ive been loading for about a two years so I got a lot to learn. Fred I read your old posts on cup and it helps. Im going to try slower powder and see if the latch still is hard to press on my handi. Fred I seen an old reply of yours that said the handi read pressure differently because of the flex. Could you explain? Hildi what is your case dim at expansion ring if you dont mind me asking?

Offline handirifle

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Hildy ?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2005, 07:07:54 PM »
Thanks Fred,
I wonder why the manuals don't list conversion pressures.  you know, an apples to apples thing.

In the Hodgdons manual, they list 30-06 pressures in CUP, but 338-06 ( a newer round) in PSI.  If this is accurate they should compare them on the same level.
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Offline Fred M

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« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2005, 07:25:38 PM »
Handirifle.
I have an answer for that one too. Some time ago I had an exchange of e-mail with the ballistician at Hodgdon and wanted to know how to convert cup into psi. He said there is no way this can be done. Well I was not convinced this to be true. Some clever mathematician came up with the answer later and I also had a go at it. The system, also is not perfect but usable. Have a look at the graph and you see why.

The next question was why thewy would use the two systems, since this is a jack pot.  He said . "
Quote
We have so much moneny tied up in cup pressure barrels and we are not prepaired to change them it would really strain our resources for no good reason, there is nothing wrong with cup data and it is very accurate and consistant.
But we are changing over to psi any new calibers or replacements. That is why we have the two systems
"


Nothing wrong with that. But since the conversion is not perfect and has limitations they wont use them or recommend them.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Hildy ?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2005, 07:33:07 PM »
CUP and PSI are corrolated....they're similar but different, sorta! :?

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/cuppsi.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline safetysheriff

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Hildy ?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2005, 08:41:29 PM »
the NRA's "Handloading" book tells of the limit of 'crusher gauges' -- which use the cup and lup (lead units of pressure) indicators -- to react properly to indicate a peak pressure.    In other words, a crusher gauge may be exposed to a 52,000 cup 'actual' pressure, but it may not respond to it fast enough to record it, and therefore may indicate only 49,000 cup as the max' pressure.    The piston that is reacting to the pressure in the test barrel can react only so quickly before the peak pressure starts to drop off -- so the equipment fails to apply the full pressure to the copper pellet being crushed for the measurement.   (can you follow all that without getting a headache? :eek:  :eek: )The 'crusher' equipment is not refined enough to do the instantaneous measurement that the electronic-transducers are able to do -- which usually are measured in psi.    

The fact is, since we know the crusher method is Usually giving us a lowball indicator of pressure, generally not capable of instantaneous peak-pressure measurement, we know that our actual pressures are somewhat different than our gauge can indicate.    How much?     Apparently not so much that we can't work around it!     It is a ball-park figure that allows a reasonable comparison of loads.     Now have you got a headache? :P

Hope this makes sense....so far......because the crusher-type gauge is also capable of overestimating pressures in some instances.....which the NRA book also deals with!     Now how do you like this hobby???? :(

SS'
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline Fred M

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Hildy ?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2005, 09:43:17 PM »
B scope.

Quote
Im going to try slower powder and see if the latch still is hard to press on my handi. Fred I seen an old reply of yours that said the handi read pressure differently because of the flex.
.

If the latch is hard to open, I guess you have worn a groove into the latch bearing surface. When the leaver is depressed it has to ride over a a concave ridge. This concave is actually good because it keeps the latch in place during discharge. I have actually peened a lip on the bottom of bearing surface to create a concave latch surface.

There are a lot of things going on when you fire a Handi. Because of the geometry of the locking system, the action is not restrained on the top and it is latch locked near the bottom below the chamber.

Therefore during discharge the action will move more on the top than on the bottom, I call this flex. The system is called a box lock with an underlug and compared to a Greener cross bolt system which also locks on the top, which is a lot stronger. Dual underlugs are also common on break open guns.

With a hot load the uplift force together with the back thrust of the cartridge will force the latch open specially when the latch has only minimal purchase on the sloped latch bearing. So again keep the pressure to a reasonable amount. That way your Handi will last a long time.


Quick
Quote
CUP and PSI are corrolated....
Did I say otherwise?. The  formula is useable and quite accurate. But with limitations. The graph dispells any notion  that cup and psi are not correlated. The formula is a good tool for a prudent handloader and 51000 psi  or 45.500 cup is a good yardstick for a Handi.

Goodbye for a couple of month. See you later alligator.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Hildy ?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2005, 05:59:59 AM »
Take care Fred, hurry back! :D
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Donaldo

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Hildy ?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2005, 04:45:26 PM »
Take care Fred.  Don't stay gone too long.  But have fun whatever you are doing.
Luke 11:21

Offline handirifle

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Hildy ?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2005, 06:22:39 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback and education on CUP/PSI.

According to the formula, the 308 Win at 52,000 CUP is equal to about 60,900 PSI.  That's up there.
God, Family, and guns, in that order!