Author Topic: how hard is #2 alloy (Read 1106 times)

Gallahad · « **on:** January 18, 2005, 10:35:05 AM »

I'm lookin at cast bullets, and instead of BHN they just say #2 alloy. What is a good estimation of the BHN of #2 alloy? Along the same lines, at what point does a bullet become too hard for hunting? Iv'e used 41 mag bullets with a bhn of 18-22, with no problems. whats too hard/when do they really start to shatter on bone? Thanks for any replys!

God Bless!

BCB · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2005, 12:09:19 PM »

Gallahad,
According to my SAECO Comparison Chart, #2 Lyman has a SAECO hardness of 8.5 which equals a BHN of 15. I don't know about bullets shattering on animal bone, but I have recovered bullets with a BHN hardness of 30 to 32 that have hit dirt and then a rock. The bullet didn't shatter at all. It was badly deformed, but I didn't see any "clean" breaks indicating shatter. Good-luck...BCB

dozer · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2005, 12:45:53 PM »

For what it's worth, WW is with in 1 brn of #2 point for hardness.
Doz

haroldclark · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2005, 01:10:52 PM »

Sir Galahad,

If you have Microsoft Excel and a regular email address, I can send you a very current list of different hardnesses of different combinations of metal.

I have both the Saeco hardness results and the Brinell hardness numbers.

Harold Clark

Send your email address as a private message.

Gallahad · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2005, 02:03:48 PM »

Don't cast my own, just want to have a good understanding of anything I shoot, and expand my knowledge of bullet performance.

Sky C. · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2005, 02:53:41 PM »

Per the Lyman Handbook - #2 alloy is BHN 16.

As for how hard is too hard. My understanding is that BHN is not the only factor. Bullets shattering on bone is related to high antimony content when used as the hardening agent. Heat treating wheel weights can achieve or surpass linotype (BHN 22) in hardness but because of the lower antimony content - are not subject to shattering.

Best regards-

Sky C.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2005, 09:24:27 PM »

My LBT hardness tester tells me that my #2 alloy bullets dropped into a bucket of water are BHN 15. I've read that BHN 16 is ideal for a hunting bullet.

Lead pot · « **Reply #7 on:** January 19, 2005, 04:30:23 AM »

Can I ask why do you guys want such a hard bullet for hunting? I'm not trying to be malicious with my question, I just would to like to know why so hard for hunting?
I never had good results with hard cast bullets for hunting or punching steel or paper.

Kurt

Sky C. · « **Reply #8 on:** January 19, 2005, 05:10:23 AM »

Leadpot-

I haven't used lead bullets for game yet except for pure lead in muzzleloader rifles. My plan is to change that though! :wink: When I do - I'll be using air cooled wheel weights that are typically running BHN 12. I've had no problems with leading up to 2000 fps. so I see no need to harden the bullets more.

As regards my experience with muzzleloaders... I shot a cow elk last year using a Hornady Great Plains conical - 410 gr., .50 cal. The shot went through the right front shoulder on a quartering shot & was found under the skin, expanded to .90 cal, on the offside behind her ribs. The shot was at around 35 yds. The bullet did it's job but it'd be my preference that the bullet would have exited to provide a better blood trail in the event that I needed to track the critter. I'm toying with going to a paper patched wheel weight bullet to up the hardness a bit to improve penetration. My thinking is that getting some expansion is a good thing but I'm of the school that wants an exit wound. If hunting with CB's, I'll be starting with a larger bore dia. to start with.

Best regards-

Sky C.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #9 on:** January 19, 2005, 05:35:43 AM »

It seems to make a considerable difference when you test. Bullets are softer within a few hours of being cast than they are after a week or so. You can feel this in the sizing.

Over a period of years, they are said to soften again.

Lead pot · « **Reply #10 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:28:37 AM »

Here is a site with a good alloy cross reference.
http://www.castingstuff.com/tester_hardness_cross_reference.htm
Ok that is fine. One must do what works best for him.

Kurt

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #11 on:** January 19, 2005, 09:26:31 PM »

Lead pot, tell us what you think the optimum bullet hardness is for hunting. I'm thinking that there is no one hardness for all hunting. For deer just about any hardness would do in my estimation but for pigs, I'm sure we'd all want something that will stick together and penetrate. Same for bear, tough critters they.

Gallahad · « **Reply #12 on:** January 20, 2005, 06:38:45 AM »

Anybody know of a company that makes a .358 cast bullet 180 gr. or better with a bhn of 26 or higher, with a low antimony content? Prefferably a keith or swc. with a gc.
:grin:
I know, I should just get the stuff and start casting myself right! Seriously thou, does somebody produce one like this?

Lead pot · « **Reply #13 on:** January 20, 2005, 11:57:03 AM »

Dusty your most likely right, fit the bullet with the game, but I think more properly use enough gun.
As far as pigs I have never hunted them, but I have killed at least three every winter for many years behind the barn with a .22 rimfire with a quick kill.
With my hunting rifles (Sharps and High wall) I have never found a reason to go harder then 1-30. Mostly I use pure swaged lead PP or knurled bullets. They work great on Elk, and I dropped a lot of White tails. The results are good and I find no reason to do it different.
I'm getting ready for a Bison hunt and the rifle will be a Shiloh in .50-90 with a 1-40 680 grain hollow point cast bullet.
When I called around talking to the outfitters they all said if you come don't bring any lead bullets harder then 30-1.
Rdnck. just shot a buff with his .45-110 Shiloh using a I think a pure lead PP bullet and dropped him at 168 yards with a brain shot, and that bullet first went through the bulls horn. The bull turned his head just as he dropped the hammer.
AS far as bear I don't know I never shot one. I had bear meat once and didn't care for it, so no sense to go after one if I wont eat it.

Kurt

quigleysharps4570 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2005, 03:37:15 AM »

Quote from: Lead pot

Can I ask why do you guys want such a hard bullet for hunting?Kurt

I'm with you on that. I don't like hard bullets for hunting. On deer they zip through them like a drill bit. All my playing bullets are cast from WW's, mainly cause there is a steady, free supply. My plumbers lead I save for muzzleloading and my hunting cartridges. Now an Australian friend of mine uses a practice that some won't approve of, but it works for him on hogs at 45-70 ranges. But he fires up 2 pots, one of pure lead and one of WW's. Fills the nose with pure, followed right behind by WW's. Claims it works well. I've never tried it.

Lead pot · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2005, 04:01:26 AM »

I can understand using a harder cast bullet for you guys using .41 and .44 mags with smokeless velocitys for punching paper or tin cans, but I feel for hunting purposes a softer bullet has it's place.
For you magnum hand gun hunters, a pure lead swaged 3/4 jacket I think would perform better then a 15-22 bhn cast bullet.
I use a .44 mag with a swaged 250 grain pure lead hollow point bullet. That bullet has excellent expansion and is a very effective hunting bullet.

Kurt

JPH45 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2005, 02:52:55 PM »

In "Sixguns" Keith speaks of using soft cast bulelts with flat noses. He soundly denounced the Remington 45 Colt BP load of the day as being too rounded on the nose and it simple went through game without cutting the tissue. He describes shooting a goat at ranges of 10 to 300 yards, hitting it with 10 of 18 rounds before it died. He says he then went to a 300 grain bullet for the 45-90, pushing it 800-900 fps. (This can be found in the chapter on hunting game)

He said the flat point was a far better killer than the round nose, but nowhere does he speak of anything any harder than 20:1. I think the hard bullet craze came along as cast bullets shooting began to become popular and Linotype was a favorite metal amoung the rifle shooters. It was plentiful as practically every newspaper used Linotype machines and scrap lino was cheap and easy to get, and resisted leading too. That in itself was aboon to hadgunners shooting arms that may or may not be designed well to handle cast bullets, a common problem in 45 Colts was .452 chambers and .454 barrels. I think hardcast came to be recommended to prevent leading without thought given to the consequences in the game fields. The thinking may well ahve been to switch to a softer bullet for hunting, but this does not seem to have been communicated well. What seems to be passed on is a hard bullet is required for penetration, yet Keith says plainly that the Remingotn bullet and load he so dispised would pass completely through game, and several shots he made on the goat at 300 yards did just that!

Too much time and too many gun rags have a way of rewriting what was originally said, and before long, nothing the original advocate was saying is left in the common wisdom of the present.

Keiths favorite load also only pushed 255 grain bullets to 1200 fps from 4" barrels a far cry from the 1500 + people seek today.

I don't see why 20:1 won't get the job done, it was a common alloy of the BP era. As a note, 20:1 is 10 BHN, WW is 11 unhardened.

I've killed 4 deer with cast 44 bullets made from 50-50 WW/Lino best I recall. That should make a little harder than 15, as the percentage of antimony will be higher thatn 50-50 Lino/lead which does replicate #2 very closely. 2:1 lead/linotype will give an approximation of WW with 1% tin added, and 3% antimony (lyman says WW is 4% antimony)

Lead pot · « **Reply #17 on:** January 23, 2005, 03:46:25 PM »

Keith was also the man that developed the Keith semi wad cutter design.
In a lot of his ridings on cast bullets he also states mixing a little antimony in the alloy to help bond the tin and lead. Lead will only except about 2 or 3% tin more then 3% is wasted because it melts at a lower temp and floats to the top of the mix. that is why it's so important to mix the melt everytime you dip the ladle so you get a more consistent weight.
He also said and I find that to be true, excess tin is the problem for bore leading. It's the solder that sticks in the bore. Tin+ lead= solder.
I have less lead flakes showing on my patch when I use pure lead bullets. Most of my alloy is 1-40 I do not have a lead problem. When my lube fails and it gets hard that is when I get some lead flakes on my patch.
Next time you start your lead pot look at the top surface when the alloy is just about to melt. You will see shinny silver droplets, well that is the separated tin starting to melt before the lead.
When I mix my alloy I use 40 lbs pure lead 1/2 pound line-o-type 1/2 lb tin.

Kurt

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2005, 06:13:17 AM »

For the record, I cast some 45 caliber bullets from a commercial #2 alloy last night and did not water drop them. The BHN was 12 according to my LBT hardness tester. I'm going to use them at that hardness in the future unless leading becomes a problem. My velocities are just not that high.

Racepres · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2005, 04:23:09 PM »

Dusty .. thats the one I want ... pls tell me you got it at midway or some such readily accessible source... Marty

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #20 on:** January 28, 2005, 12:58:16 PM »

I got it from Art Green, Metals for Casting, Suite 5, 485 S. Robertson Blvd, Beverly Hills, CA 90211