Author Topic: Need advise (Read 3072 times)

Mace · « **on:** December 12, 2002, 05:51:02 AM »

I need advise:
In Iowa we are allowed to hunt with straight cased cartridges handguns during the late season muzzleloading season. The following is a list of legal cartridges: .357 mag, .357 max, .375 Win, .38 Super, .40 S&W, .401 Powermag, 10 mm Auto, .41 S&W Mag, .41 action exp, .44 S&W mag, .44 automag, .444 Marlin, .45 acp, .45 colt, .45 win mag, .45 silhouette, .451 detonics, .454 casull, .45-70 govt, .475 wil mag, .475 linebaugh, .50 action exp, and .50 linbaugh.
I plan on buying a barrel of one of those listed above with a scope for my T/C Encore. I am not sure if T/C make barrels for all those listed above. Which would give me the best range (up to 150 yds) and knock down power for a Whitetail Buck.

jhalcott · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2002, 06:05:15 AM »

the 45-70 is chambered in the contender, but I would practice with one for seveal months before hunting with it

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2002, 06:43:22 AM »

Personally I'd go with the .454 Casull. It will push 300 grain bullets to almost the same velocity as the .45-70 but with less recoil due to less powder being required. Also there are excellent bullets of lighter weight available which you can push faster if you wish or just lower the recoil level if needed and still have a great deer round. Easily up to 150 yards when scoped on the Encore.

GB

The Blade · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:22:07 AM »

Respectfully, GB, I must disagree with your reasoning in the above post.

Recoil, otherwise known as force, is a function purely of mass and acceleration. It doesn't matter a whit as to how much pressure is generated within the brass, receiver, and barrell. The only two variables that result in recoil are the weight of the bullet and the rate at which it gains velocity moving down the barrell.

Using some round numbers here, a powder and bullet combination producing 20,000 psi might push a bullet to 2000 fps. A totally different powder (with the same bullet) might attain the same muzzle velocity at 18,000 psi. Therefore, with the same muzzle velocity (assuming the acceleration rate to reach that muzzle velocity was similar for both powders) would produce identical recoil.

The amount of powder burning within the firearm, therefore, doesn't enter into the equation.

Just my $0.02 worth of theory, anyway.

The Blade

BCB · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:28:50 AM »

The Blade,

I might have to agree with "The Beard" on this one. I remember sometime ago looking at an equation to figure recoil. It was in some book or magazine and it asked for the weight of the powder charge to be used in the equation also. After all, it is mass also, isn't it?

I am uncertain as to how much recoil it would add when using a 300 grain bullet and different powder charges, but I think it still just might matter...BCB

The Blade · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:41:07 AM »

BCB,

The "mass" part that enters the equation is the mass that is accelerating. You could make an arguement that since the burning powder moves down the barrel along with the bullet, it's mass should be considered in the calculations.

I would argue, though, that the movement of burning powder adds negligible force to the overall recoil.

Interesting topic (to me, anyway!)

The Blade

HoCoMDHunter · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:51:40 AM »

Blade - BCB is right. Take a look at this page: http://www.aros.net/~jerryt/applets/Recoil.html
It appears that the powder weight is important. To be honest, I'm not sure why. And if it is, wouldn't it be important to know the type of powder? Too much to wrap my little brain around.

Mace - Sorry, we got off topic. The 454 would be a fine choice. Just my humble opinion.

DB Leath · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:53:46 AM »

Ok to get back on topic some. I have barrel in 45/70 if you are not used to something kicking that hard you might want to wait until you gain some experience shooting something that kicks a little less. There is no point in learning bad shooting habbits by forcing something too big too soon. I personally would go with the 44 magnum or 41. I would practice practice practice. In field conditions from shooting sticks or what ever. Oh I forgot the 45 Colt would be a fine one too.
Just my thoughts I hope you find something that makes you happy.
Cliff

Gregory · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2002, 12:11:15 PM »

1. I have Load from a Disk program to calculate recoil and powder charge is a factor. Bullet weight, velocity, and powder charge are the variables.

2. I'd chose the 357 Max of those on your list. Recoil is moderate and it shoots flat out to 150 yds. You'd have to go custom for an Encore barrel, however. I wish I could use my 357 Max Contender here in Illinois but the case is too long.

3. I can't see any reason to shoot anything heavier than a 44 Mag for deer.
Unless you just like recoil. ( I don't). A 44 Mag gets you to 125 yds comfortably with 200 gr bullets and is a factory chambering.

My $0.03 worth.
Greg

41MAG · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2002, 12:23:47 PM »

Give the 375win some thought its easy to reload,the recoil is comfortable,it is a solid 150 yd. gun .I have shot one for yrs. & taken a lot of whitetail with it. It will break shoulders & totally destroy the heart lung area. Mine is set up with a muzzle break & a 21/2 to 7 burris scope with pratice 150 yd. shots are a piece of cake. :wink:

Bullseye · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2002, 04:12:58 PM »

For 150 yards I would go with the 375 Win or the 357 max (150 is pushing the max to its limit). If 100 yards would do ya the 41 mag or 44 mag would be tough to beat. I have barrels in all these calibers and they all shoot plenty good for hunting.

Graybeard · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2002, 07:38:21 PM »

Sorry Blade but yer wrong on this one.

Pressure has no direct impact on ACTUAL recoil. Felt recoil yeah maybeso a bit.

The weight of both bullet and powder charge have to be added together to figure the recoil and all programs which calculate it will ask for both. This is why they say the new short magnums kick less than their belted counter parts even tho they shoot bullets of same weigth to same velocity.

Now I do agree that there ain't gonna be a LOT less recoil from the .454 Casull pushing 300s to same velocity as the .45-70. Some but not a lot. The real reduction as I said comes if you wish to use the lighter bullets available for it that aren't available for the .45-70.

The difference tain't much.

GB

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2002, 11:03:49 PM »

if you can handle the recoil (honestly) the .454 is great if not try a .41 mag its a little flatter shooting then the .44 or .45 and its milder recoiling and will kill any deer on earth.

The Blade · « **Reply #13 on:** December 13, 2002, 02:28:54 AM »

GB, since I drifted off topic, I've been looking at the recoil calculators. I have found that they calculate "energy" rather than "force."

Momentum is conserved in the bullet firing reaction, and momentum is directly related to force. Energy, however, is not purely conserved in the reaction, due to the fact that much energy is lost as heat when the powder ignites. I'm sure what we feel is force, not energy.

I'll come to a conclusion on this one soon, and I'll post the reason that powder charge is a variable in the recoil equation. I know you'll be on pins and needles until I reach some conclusions :wink:

This even has my brother (a Ph.D in physics) stumped. I'll report back soon in a new post.

The Blade

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2002, 07:38:51 AM »

Gee guys, this is a stumper. Not to be flip but once fired I would assume the mass of the powder almost totally disappears into thin air, except for a few unburned particles and a cloud of smoke.

What I really don't understand is the hair splitting about the recoil generated by one 300 grain bullet at 2000'/sec and another 300 grain bullet, of approximately the same diameter at the same velocity. A 45 caliber 300 grain bullet at 2000'/sec is going to develop the same amount of energy and most likely the same amount of felt recoil as any other 300 grain 45 caliber bullet at the same velocity regardless of caliber. Yes?

Mikey

LK Wallace · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2002, 10:05:26 AM »

Yes, the powder gas disapears into thin air but, it still has mass. It just disburses into the air. Air has mass too, we just don't normally notice it. It's why we feel the force of the wind, because even air has mass and when it hits you with any velocity the impact with your body causes it to deccelerate (accelerate in the opposite direction). Taken to extreme that's all that makes up the distructive force of straight line winds and tornados. They are just air molecules traveling so fast that the force required to slow them down is more thana stationary object, say a house, can withstand, so it is torn apart.

It is and it isn't splitting hairs to factor in the charge weight. Most of the time charge weights don't differ by more than 5 or 10 grains. But, just looking at Hodgdon No. 27, the 454 with a 300gr bullet has a max charge of 31.5gr of W296 and the 45-70 also with 300gr bullets has a max charge of 63.5gr of H335. That's a 32gr increase in charge or about 10% of the 454 bullet and powder weight. That means is that in guns of the weight and barrel length and 300gr bullets at about the same velocity the 45-70 would have about 10% more recoil. It means shooting the 45-70 300gr is about aqual to shooting a 454 335gr. 10% isn't much but these calibers already kick lick mules and it might put someone over his/her limit to absorb recoil and shoot accurately.

Don't mean to be preachy, in no way do I presume to know even a small portion of everything. But, since somebody else brought up the subject, I just tried to clarify.

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** December 18, 2002, 03:56:48 AM »

Thank you all for the clarification, especially Greybeard, Blade and LK Wallace. What you have clarified for me is that I'm gonna stick with my 40 and 4 maginum wheel gun 'cause everything else is prolly too much for my wrists. A man's gotta know his limits, and I met mine a long time ago. I'm just sorry I've forgotten her name. This is Mikey.

bigbore442001 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:31:07 AM »

If you plan on reloading,I'd go with the .375 Winchester. It is relatively flat shooting and with a 220 grain bullet, doesn't kill your hand all that much.

If you plan to shoot factory I'd go with either a 12" 454 or a 15" 45-70.

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2002, 10:40:47 AM »

There is something to be said for knowing your limits Mikey. The really big boomers especially if not braked are really tough on the wrists. Both of mine are pretty well shot from recoil. Matter of fact the doctor told me I shouldn't be shooting anything, long gun or handgun with the wrists I have and my right shoulder. I thanked him fer his advice and the arthritis medicine and have had to cut back drastically but am still gonna be shooting.

GB

Rog · « **Reply #19 on:** December 18, 2002, 07:45:11 PM »

Because the velocity of the escaping gases contribute to recoil (somewhat of a jet effect...).

Most ballistic programs that calculate recoil use a constant for the velocity of the escaping gas, when in actuality, that value should be changed to reflect slower burning powders or quicker burning powders.

Since we (the industry outsider) don't have any easy way to measure the speed of the escaping gas from the burnt powder, most programs use a constant value to cover all spectrums.

Changing the charge weight will change the recoil. However, this change is minimal. Minimal, but noticable in felt recoil. As an example, in my 30-06 JDJ Encore, loads using 63.0 grains of RL22 recoil significantly more than loads using 55.5 grains of IMR 4064, with muzzle velocity of both loads virtually the same.

Since the gaseous state of the powder occupies ~100 times the space of the solid state of the powder, and the burn speed of the powder determines the rate at which this gas is produced, then the charge weight will effect the recoil. More powder = more recoil; less powder = less recoil.

Regards,

Rog :-)

The Blade · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2002, 02:30:36 AM »

I appreciate all the information in the above posts. Each of you make very valid statements as to why the amount of powder in a casing (with muzzle velocity remaining constant) can affect recoil. I'm convinced, particularly since the charge weight can be a significant percentage of the bullet weight.

I kept thinking that I would come up with the time to independantly research the variables involved in the recoil, but we've been blessed with a tremendous amount of work since Thanksgiving! (That's a good thing.)

I think what I'll do during the holidays is generate quite a bit of recoil of my own. Gathering empirical evidence is always more fun than postulating on theory!

Merry Christmas -

The Blade

Mikey · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2002, 03:55:23 AM »

Rog: You and the Blade are absolutely correct and the different burning rate of powders is something I just plain forgot about.

I can easily remember (now, after a couple of prompts) that full charges of faster burning powders sure kick up the recoil in most of the calibers I've shot, which is why I prefer the slower burning powders if they give me the same accuracy and approximate velocity.

It also stands to reason that when trying to figure the amount of recoil that the different burning rates of powders must be considered and factored into the equation. I haven't the foggiest idea how one would go about trying to analyze that factor but as The Blade said, it is always more fun to gather empirical evidence than to postulate on the notion. I think I'll go gather some empirical evidence this weekend and then postulate about it over a couple of glasses of good eggnog.

Yep, I think so. This be Mikey.

L-Roy · « **Reply #22 on:** December 23, 2002, 04:50:33 PM »

Hello shooters,
I'm glad that I finally located this thread. I feel that I have the answer as to why the equations for determining recoil need to include the weight of the powder charge.

For simplicity's sake, let me say that the amount of powder in the case is also mass in motion until combustion consumes it. Therefore, its weight must be taken into consideration along with the weight of the bullet.

And to a lesser extent, felt recoil will need to take into account the working pressure range of the compared cartridges. You do feel the effects of the higher pressure combustion against your shoulder!

Maybe this will shed light upon the questions contained within this thread!

malainse · « **Reply #23 on:** January 04, 2003, 01:56:04 PM »

Here is my answer to all of it... :grin:

Find a friend or anyone that has the Cal. you are looking at getting. Shoot it.....If to much find another one......If shooting a gun that has to much bark for you, you will not shoot good.

my 2 cents

Doesniper · « **Reply #24 on:** January 09, 2003, 08:23:14 AM »

Try the 444, it gives about 200 fps over the 375 Win. with a 200g bullet.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 10, 2003, 03:26:25 AM »

Isn't the pressure curve developed by a fast powder vs slow powder also a factor. I've always heard that a short pressure curve is going to "thump" (felt recoil) you harder that a longer one.

You did not indicate whether you have shot the hangun version of the Encore before so I will throw out these words of advise. You don't just start shooting out to 150 yards with one of these guns no matter what caliber. It takes a lot more practice than a rifle even if it is scoped.

helobill · « **Reply #26 on:** January 10, 2003, 03:31:31 AM »

If you need proof that amount of powder affects recoil, fire a blackpowder gun with no ball or patch. Every time I have to pull a ball 'cause I saw nothing to shoot at and it got too dark to shoot at anything before getting back to camp, the only way to clean the powder out is to fire a cap. You get lots of flame and noise AND a little recoil. If you don't dump out most of the powder first (which I forgot to do ONCE) you get significant recoil for a gun that's not accelerating any projectile. Empirical data which proves the necessity to include amount of powder in the equation.
Helicopter Bill

S.B. · « **Reply #27 on:** January 12, 2003, 11:45:31 AM »

JHalcot, I got to shoot one of the TC contenders in 45-70. It had a sort of compensator on the end of the barrel. Didn't recoil as hard as my 629 classic. We did some one handed stuff, at 25 yards, (I know this isn't good hunting form) and it shot quite easily and accurately. Of the five or six shooters in the group shooting this particular pistol, we formed an attachment for it, with everyone wanting to buy this one. Needless to say the owner didn't want to sell. By the way the law here in Illinois is basically the same for calibers, and the season is in January, during the coldest part of the year.

Jose Grande · « **Reply #28 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:43:45 PM »

I am glad Blade's bro. is a P.hd because he ought to make sense out of all this. Yall got me so confused & turned around I don't know what to think. And I'm supposed to understand this subject. :? :? :shock:

LoosePrimerPocket · « **Reply #29 on:** February 08, 2003, 06:38:00 PM »

If you are using a T/C contender, you can just drop the whole subject of the .454 casull. It is too hot of a round for the Contender, you can however get it in an Encore. You also left a T/C custom shop chambering out of your list, the .445 SuperMag. I have one, and let me tell you, it is definately a badboy. ( you will want the muzzle break!) Mine is in a 10 inch barrel + break, and shoots a 240 gr XTP at 2000 Fps. it is flat shooting enough for easy 100+ yard shots. you must reload to have this cartridge and bring out it's full potential though, the 185 gr XTP's will get there even quicker.

just a thought