Author Topic: Which of the following are Grizzley Worthy? (Read 5131 times)

dabigmoose · « **Reply #30 on:** January 23, 2005, 08:01:24 AM »

What is it that you want exactly ya keep pondering around on this
auto 444 stuff. If you want one have it made and try it out for yourself.
The diff in the 444 and any 458 is the 444 is actually .429 cal it is not
near the 458 diam and there for is not going to be in the same class of cartridge.
The 444 is a good round in a lever gun and at its time of
production it was a good idea.
THERE ARE LOTS OF GOOD CARTRIDGES AND RIFLES AND THESE GUYS HAVE TRIED TO IMPRESS ON YOU
THE EMPHASIS OF TRIED AND TRUE.!
Experience is everything so listen to these guys they are trying to
teach you something.Hunt with what your guide recommends
If you shoot and and it dont go down the guide will do it do it for you no if about it.
To hunt Alaska bear you must have a guide being a nonresident.
dabigmoose

pastorp · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2005, 04:55:37 PM »

Battlerifle, Concerning bear gun calibers. For black bear or interior grizzles I think anything 30/06 power level or above works with proper bullets and shot placement. There is a vast difference in a hunting guns requirements and a guides stopping rifle. For black bear anything you have mentioned will work. However you said grizzlie. They differ quite a bit in size depending on food sources.And you said a DG stopper caliber.
It is my opinion that there are no suitable semi-autos in a proper caliber.

I use a 50 alaskan built on a marlin guide gun action. If you could get this to work in your semi-auto reliably you could sell a ton of them up here in alaska. This is not really a practical all around hunting rifle, but mighty comforting when traveling in big bear country. A 338,35whellen,or 375h&h probably makes a better all around hunting gun. But for what you want the 50 alaskan is my choice. I just don't believe it will fit in a semi-auto and work reliably. Regards, Byron

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2005, 05:53:08 PM »

I don't know how the 50 Alaskan could be fit in an existing semi-auto either. The 35 Whelen on the other hand could be made to work in anything originally in 30-06. I would also think seriously about the 375 Whelen Wildcat if it were also griz-worthy. An AK based rifle in 30-06 should be coming out in the near future. It already exists, just that import arrangements are screwy. It wouldn't be impossible to make it one's self, but it would take a bit of reingineering.

If I were as convinced of the AR-10's reliability as of the AK, I'd also consider a 458 caliber wildcat of the Winchester Short Magnum.

There was a guy who totally redid an M1 Garand into 458 Winchester Magnum. My hat's off to him.

pastorp · « **Reply #33 on:** February 04, 2005, 07:14:36 PM »

Battlerifle, If you are really serious about this the man to call I believe would be JD Jones at SSK Industries. He has done a tremendous amount of work on AR15's with large wildcat cartridges.

www.sskindustries.com Phone#740-264-0176

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 06, 2005, 07:39:39 PM »

I am familiar with many of those, particularly the 458 SOCOM monster, which is a small step up from a factory loaded 45-70 and uses the same bullets.

If that's not enough power, a company called Accuracy Systems will do an AR-10 in 450 Marlin.

AkRvrrat · « **Reply #35 on:** February 10, 2005, 11:07:15 AM »

hello G3! I have been following you with curiosity about autos and this .444 - I see that you have knowledge with some wildcatting methods. I have lived in the village most of my life and coincidentally I am a Koyukon Athabaskan/Inupiat Eskimo mix. I have in my soul a mixing of greviences for you - you are being instructed and warned about your ideas. Take heed on the advices of these few wise hunters, I can vouch for their caliber choices. I have successfully taken large interior grizzly bears with the .45-70 rebuilt by Jim West, my .375RUM and the least of my big game arsenal a .300 winmag. I can assure you these animals require you're greatest of respect! I have seen auto loaders fail and that .429 diameter 444 marlin is lacking in sufficient and reliable knockdown power. My goodness live along time! - these animals move faster than you can possibly imagine if you never seen them. You're young and impressionable - just listen to the wise and elderly - you will benefit from them. Make sure you area aided in that hunt by somebody more skilled than yourself.

gwindrider1 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 10, 2005, 12:24:16 PM »

AkRvrrat, Well said! If only we could have had wisdom to go along with our youth. Oh well, such is life. :wink:

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 10, 2005, 09:49:59 PM »

Believe me, I have the greatest respect for those who've met these animals in the wild. I won't for a moment question your judgement on which cartridges are sufficient. I only wish to note that even the experienced have different opinions on the matter. That is the only grounds upon which I haven't taken a specific piece of advice as the final word.

My own background is in the technology that makes these rifles, particularly the semi-autos. The only claim to expertise I have is with regard to ensuring reliability with autoloaders. The most reliable tend to be intermediate in power. But I believe I have struck gold by identifying one that has the dimensional clearances for a large bore round whose strength specs are sufficient for its medium pressures. That's a project I'm currently exploring.

What I'm also aware of is ballistic similarities between certain rounds. For example, the 450 Marlin is equivalent to a modern load of a 45-70. Those who use a heavy 45-70 would not be undergunned for switching to 450 Marlin, though the 45-70 probably has the edge with economy and options. But if dimensional specs and load uniformity are an issue, the 450 Marlin may be the better choice in an autoloader.

If 444 Marlin is insufficient, than it's insufficient. The reason for wanting to use it was that dimensionally it would fit well in an certain AK type action. I would argue that a properly tested and tuned AK action is at least as reliable as a manually operated bolt.

If 450 Marlin is sufficient, which I have a hard time not believing, then the available autoloading option is a customized AR-10. The drawback is that reliability is not equivalent to the AK. For it to be trusted for dangerous game hunting, it would have to be tested in all applicable conditions. A new gas system (Daewoo type perhaps) might serve well.

I would never say in a million years that autoloading or increased capacity can compensate for low skill or insufficient knockdown from each shot. All I'm saying is that reliable autoloaders are not impossible to make, and that's what's my department. Mating reliable designs with sufficiently powerful cartridges is my goal. Have a little faith

In all reality, chances are I'll learn a lot about more about rifle design, build a small fraction of the things I imagine, and if I ever go hunting the most dangerous game, I'd probably use a 458 Win Mag that belongs to an experienced hunter friend who would probably use his 375 H&H; he's a better shot, I'm less recoil sensitive. Alternately I may acquire a 375 H&H myself. Truth is I'm perfectly comfortable with bolt actions and from recreational shooting with milsurps I must say I've developed a pretty good rapid reloading reflex. Developing a big game autoloader would be about making something new and good, not about something I could never live without.

Again thanks everyone for your generous sharing of knowledge. Keep it coming!

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #38 on:** February 20, 2005, 04:09:07 PM »

Ok, here's a request for clarification:

The 444 Marlin is considered insufficient because it's bullet selection is restricted to lighter bullets not shaped for grizzley.

WHAT IF:
Heavier bullets shaped correctly for grizzley were developed in 0.429" diameter? Would that make the difference on whether the 444 Marlin were viable?

Like the line from "The Core"
"You can't go into the center of the Earth."
"What if we could?"

An intriguing thought might be saboted 375 caliber bullets. Sabots exist for 44 to 35 caliber, at least I think I've seen them.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2005, 10:20:52 AM »

On that note, what about 375 Winchester, and what if it were fed in a box magazine and able to use pointed bullets?

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2005, 06:34:23 PM »

I can definitely dig a 12ga. Are you saying then that even if bullets the size and weight for 45-70 were loaded in 444 Marlin that the case capacities and pressure limits wouldn't push it fast enough for use against grizzley bear?

That's the kind of info I'm looking for. Not looking for a "magic" gun, just looking deep into each of the options for an adequate one and hoping to maybe come up with something new based on something proven, or rather a new combination of proven things.

Thanks!

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2005, 08:28:23 PM »

That's great information, thanks! Right now I'm basically brainstorming and such. The rifle I'd have in 444 Marlin would be a development of my own. It would be interesting to see how an independent evaluator would measure its strength.

As far as hunting griz goes, I doubt it'll ever happen. I'd probably go to Africa first, and for such a trip I'd almost certainly use a 375 H&H, 376 Wby, or 338 RUM.

My main focus is on developing the tools but I do try to think up stuff that would have a practical use.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 22, 2005, 01:00:39 PM »

I actually didn't mean the 378 Wby, I meant the 375, which if I'm not mistaken is to the 375 H&H what the 300 Wby is to the 300 H&H, ie able to take H&H as well (if I'm not mistaken.)

I wouldn't say I'm recoil sensitive, but I'm not 18 anymore (when I could fire a 458 Win Mag and think about the cost of shooting another round more than the recoil.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 22, 2005, 02:17:36 PM »

On that caliber, what about 375 Whelen (375-06)? It's a small step behind 376 Steyr.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #44 on:** February 22, 2005, 10:03:02 PM »

Being able to use a 30-06 based round opens up many action possibilities, including the M1 Garand and even the extremely reliable AK.

Of course I'd really like to just design my own auto for long magnums (ie 375 H&H, 300 Wby, and the RUMs.)

Maybe I should stop jibba jabbering and start designing...

glock29 · « **Reply #45 on:** February 23, 2005, 05:59:19 AM »

I personally would ditch your list of choices and pick up a CZ550 Safari Magnum in either 375 H&H or 458 Lott.
Either of these rifles cost around $700 and provide MORE than enough power for the game you are hunting.
I personally own a 458 Lott, a 45-70 (that uses +P+ loads exclusively), a 300 mag, and several other rifles.
The ONLY rifle that I own that I would use for hunting Grizzly is my 458 Lott (which can use 458 Win Mag shells for lower power)

while99 · « **Reply #46 on:** February 23, 2005, 10:48:08 AM »

I read an article by long-time brown bear guide Andy Runyon in the Handloader's Digest Twelfth Addition. Andy indicated that he used the .375 H&H, and various improved versions thereof, for about seven years and found it lacking as a stopper. He then switched to a good, fast .40 caliber, first in wildcat form and later the .416 Remington magnum. This is not some arm-chair theorist talking; he had guided for brown bears for about 40 years when the article first appeared. Oddly enough he shunned the 400 grain bullet in favor of the 300 grain. Andy's picture is in the most recent Barnes reloading manual so he must know a thing or to about stayin' alive in the north country.

while99 · « **Reply #47 on:** February 23, 2005, 06:26:33 PM »

Swage, in the same article, Andy indicated he used 350 grain hand-swaged bullets in his .429 Harvey Magnum. That cartridge appears to be a .375 H&H necked up to .429. He liked it a lot but it was stolen. He eventually got a .416 Remington Magnum and used the 300 grain Barnes original.

while99 · « **Reply #48 on:** February 24, 2005, 10:25:57 AM »

Swage, what type of bullet swaging equipment do you use? I shoot .338s and .416s quite a bit and they are expensive to feed. I've looked at the Corbin equipment in the past but I don't know what's available.