Author Topic: Win. 94 headspace & loading problem (Read 1997 times)

zeek · « **on:** February 06, 2005, 08:31:46 AM »

I have a Win. mod.94 in 1949 vintage that will show the primers are backing out abought 1/64" on firing. The bolt face is flat with no indentations but the locking bolt will move side to side when chamber is loaded.
It also will not load through the loading port unless the lever is slightly open. Mabey it's just worn out.
Any suggestions or fixes are appreciated.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2005, 11:15:58 AM »

Sounds like there may be severe wear.. Have you detail stripped the weapona nd cleaned it. Check for excessive wear on the actuator post on the lifter and in the locking block cuts. If there is nothing obvious remove the loading gate and work the action to see what's blocking the gates opening when the action is locked. It may be a worn lifter or lifter spring. The headspace is best check with a headspace guage. Below is a link to a parts diagram.

http://stevespages.com/ipb-winchester-94.html

Shorty · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2005, 11:24:01 AM »

I had a well used Marlin 336 that had the same symptoms. Fortunately, it was stolen out of my truck in Pasadena, Tx just before Christmas back in '85. I'm sure it went straight south of the border for someones Felix Navidad! No great loss. :wink:

Racepres · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2005, 04:11:51 PM »

I have one w/ a slight headspace problem .. but fount that w/ a round loaded, action closed, that I can "force" the bolt slightly farther forward (not nearly the amt. that it moves w/o a loaded round). So I am on the look-out for a pre-64 locking block, in hopes that does it.. BTW what is a carrier spring? where does it go? and what in the heck does it do??? (Ignorance is curable = Education) Marty

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2005, 01:48:32 AM »

Somewhere on the net. I saw oversized locking bolts available, possibly Brownells.
As said above, start with a detail strip and clean. This will likely increase your problem to some degree, but it will tell you what's wrong, and what parts you need to replace.
As a temporary fix, you can peen the sides of the locking bolt where it slides in the receiver, thus tightenning it up. This has to be done very carefully, or you'll be stoning them down again.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 07, 2005, 06:16:31 AM »

The carrier spring governs the movement of the carrier or lifter. That's the part that move the round from the level of the magazine to the level of the chamber. The carrier spring in the 94 rides over a hump. It snaps the carrier up, holding it there to allow the bolt to ram the shell into the chamber or down, to allow a new round from the magazine to move onto the carrier. If the carrier is too soft or the spring weak the rifle will jam and/or the carrier will be at the wrong position in the receiver.. That equals out of time.. Causes a myriad of problems. The carrier is number 31 on the parts diagram at the link shown below. Notice the 'v' shaped end... This is what interacts with the carrier.

http://stevespages.com/ipb-winchester-94.html

zeek · « **Reply #6 on:** February 07, 2005, 03:14:29 PM »

You can get Locking Bolts in standard and oversize from Wisner's

Racepres · « **Reply #7 on:** February 07, 2005, 03:44:18 PM »

John y cannuck: Yep peening the locking bolt (block in my book) solved the headspace prob (apparently) knowing that this is only temporary .. Thanks to zeek I'll be looking at wisners for a replacement . Now to the darn spring that I don't have!!! Haven't played "rifleman" w/this piece but it "seems" to feed OK when operated "tentatively" watching the workings ... Heck I'm still looking for the place to put the screw in that holds the spring!!!! I'll get 'er tho.. BTW that diagram is worlds better than the one in the book I have ... but for some reason my trigger return spring is Round (actually looks alot like a paperclip!!!) I will figure it out Thanks alot for the input and a special thanks to zeek ... I didn't intend to pirate yer thread and I hope you got as much out of it as I ..... Marty

gunnut69 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 07, 2005, 08:56:53 PM »

Racepres-What type 94 do you have? The pre64's used a forged carrier, the post 64's a sheet metal stamping, and the last itteration uses a cast(MIM??) part. Looks better than the sheet metal but had a 44 mag that just snapped. No real stress just snapped and it was my father-in-laws!! A call to Winchester and install the new carrier-problem solved. That's been a few years back. The helpdesk guy said they had gotten some bad parts from a supplier. Some of the parts in the sheet metal 94's were pretty chintzy..

Racepres · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2005, 04:00:12 AM »

Gunnut69: According to the serial # it is a 1951. The carrier seems to be made of cast steel. If it makes a diff. when I tried to get the carrier screws from gun parts they sent me a pair that are much too small in diameter.. Don't have another to compare it to, so don't have a clue when the screw diameter was changed. (maybe it wasn't and I just got the wrong thing!!) At any rate it seems to be working OK except that I will be replacing the lock if not the bolt and the lock....... Marty

gunnut69 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2005, 07:35:33 PM »

Sounds like someones been micing parts again. These rifles have been made in such numbers that anything that can be done to them probably has.. The parts blow up above is a pre64 gun such as yours.. If the parts don't match then perhaps substitutions have been made. If it works then it a moot point. Good luck..

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2005, 11:52:01 PM »

http://stevespages.com/ipb-winchester-94.html
Just to make it easier for everyone, here's the pic from Steve's site

Well, that was the attempt anyways, it's clearer if you go to Steve's site, GB's image reducing software makes it hard to read on my computer, even after I've clicked on it to restore it.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 09, 2005, 05:50:08 AM »

On the pre64 guns I would expect to see a forged and machined carrier.. As I said before perhaps some parts swapping has taken place..

Racepres · « **Reply #13 on:** February 09, 2005, 12:24:22 PM »

Well I would have said that it was cast, then machined ... but truthfully I can't detect why I think that??? (makes alot of sense huh??) At any rate It is a well made (stout) piece. My curiosity revolves around the carrier screws... Did win. go to a smaller diameter screw (s) later on?? Also of course the trigger return / safety catch spring on mine is round not a flat spring.. however I can see that w/ some effort a guy could duplicate it w/ fairly large diameter paper clip (sorry that's what it reminds me of) I have no doubt that some parts on this piece are "non-standard" Heck I screwed a sears mod.54 barrel and wood onto it , and who knows what it had been thru before it weasled it's way into my collection of misfits!!! The thing that gets me (just cause I have a desire to understand it) is the carrier spring , or lack of ... all indications are that the bolt/link/lever combo are in control of the carrier.. Don't strain yerself over it tho cause as I said it is working ... Also like I said before I hope that Zeek got some use of this discussion, as I have ...Heck now that the lock is peened I am taking my time shopping for bolt/lock parts!!! Later all and keep up the "patient" good work .. Marty

zeek · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:23:34 PM »

The people at Wisner' Inc. have a tech support that is open from noon till 1pm Pacific time. (360-7484590) I talke with them today and they were very helpfull and walked me through the problem and gave suggestions. On the way is a.010 oversize block and a new carrier and all new screws. Carrier was bent and twisted bad and could not straighten out good enough. They manufacture a lot of the parts to factory specs. Also picked up a new original link. Should have a new gun now.
Thanks for the help.