Author Topic: Another newbie here who wants to now more about 45-70 (Read 774 times)

Big Shooter Mike · « **on:** February 11, 2005, 06:03:08 AM »

Howdy Pards,

I have been reading these posts here for some time and finally decided to ask this very informed forum about 45-70.
You see I shoot cowboy acction. This year IL will have the first state cowboy shoot and one of the side matches will be a long range shoot.
I don't know how far, probably no more that 300 yards.
Sooo... I decided to enter the competition. Not having enough $$ for Sharps, Penderssolies or whatever, I start to read more about 45-70 and I found out about NEF/H&R 45-70.

Now my questions to you are?
- What is the difference between NEF and H&R? If I order one from my gun dealer should I say NEF or H&R Buffalo Classic.

- Can I use the single shot to shoot more than 300 yards?

- I will be getting into reloading them 45's and I'm looking for dies, black powder and bullets. What will be a good source of supplies and what should I buy. I have a Lee Turret. Can I use Lee dies?
I know that I have to experiment so what should I be looking for?

- What about the sights? I heard that H&R comes with Williamson's sights. Can I use those in cowboy shoot? Are the sights OK for 100-600 yards?

Thank you very much and I apologize for my little novel here.

Yo'all have a good weekend.

BSM from IL

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2005, 07:09:09 AM »

First Off...let we say Welcom to GBO...

I haven't shot in any cowboy matches...but there are a few here that do...

Montanan...can you help a new guy out here...and Quickdtoo...fill the guy in on all the Buff Classic's are...

This would be the gun I would get...as far as the Lee Turret presses...I don't use them anymore...and I don't know how they would handle the cowboy loads you'll be wanting to use...but I do know the Buff Classic will do a fine job for you..

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2005, 07:25:23 AM »

Quote

- What is the difference between NEF and H&R? If I order one from my gun dealer should I say NEF or H&R Buffalo Classic.

- Can I use the single shot to shoot more than 300 yards?

- I will be getting into reloading them 45's and I'm looking for dies, black powder and bullets. What will be a good source of supplies and what should I buy. I have a Lee Turret. Can I use Lee dies?
I know that I have to experiment so what should I be looking for?

- What about the sights? I heard that H&R comes with Williamson's sights. Can I use those in cowboy shoot? Are the sights OK for 100-600 yards?

Welcome aboard!

The Buffalo Classic is an H&R product, but for all intents and purposes, H&R and NEF are one in the same, built in the same factory, owned by Marlin. Both brands come in the same box with all the same markings with the exception of the BC (& Target, I think) which comes in a DoskoSport hard scoped rifle case.

The BC comes with a Williams WGRS peep sight mounted on top of the barrel where the 2 rear scope rail holes are located. It's basically a short range hunting sight, although it could be used for shooting out to the limits of the typical .45-70 hunting range of 150-200yds or so. The front sight is a Lyman 17AUG globe sight and comes with several inserts. An optional Williams FP target sight can be purchased from H&R for $60 that will get you out to 500-600 yds according to another poster, but I don't know if that was with cowboy loads or not.

I'll leave the other questions for Montanan to answer since I'm just a newbie to the BC and am still in the learning process too, he's the guru of long range shooting here and can help you a lot.

bajabill · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2005, 07:41:15 AM »

The ultra rifles are H&R branded, The handirifles are NEF branded. There are different options of stocks and caliber, barrel length and wieghts between the two. You should consult the H&R website for the actual options because they change yearly. Someone may swear on their mothers grave that there is a difference in the receiver between the two, I dont have enough to dispute that claim, but I would be really surprise if there is. Both newer recievers can be outfitted with any additional barre. The Buf Classic and Target model do have a case haredened receiver however along with actual walnut wood for the stock.

Big Shooter Mike · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2005, 08:39:20 AM »

Thank you to all for the welcome to the forum and for the info.

What I get from your msgs. is that NEF and H&R are one and the same.
When I'll place my order with the dealer I'll ask for BC with the long range settings sight (FP) instead of normal Williams sight.

I'll still wait for Montanan for his impute on the cowboy shooting legalese.

Thanks guys.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2005, 09:23:47 AM »

Mike, the BC comes with the WGRS sight, the FP sight will have to be ordered separately from H&R who has the best price on it of $60, unless they have raised their price but not changed their web site..

http://www.hr1871.com/store/index.htm

Williams WGRS

Williams FP

You might wait for Montanan to answer your questions about CAS, I don't know the rules and what sights are legal...there are some period sights available that are rather spendy starting at about $125 and way up.... Check out the CAS forum on down the page on the main index for more info, there may be more help there.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:12:30 PM »

They are legal in cowboy shoots but not BPCR except some limited fun shoots like the Quigly match, SASS rules state any period correct firearm in good condition seeing as H&R released this style rifle in 1871 its period correct, I am not real sure about the williams sight but peeps where used back then and there are a bazillion options that will work if your group won't allow the williams. I plan on useing my .38-55 in cowboy and have plans to pick up a BC barrel for it and ream it out to .45-110. Good luck and welcome.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:30:55 PM »

Lee turret press works fine loading .45-70. Lee is reputed to have a special expander ball for loading heavy cast bullets. I am exceedingly fond of the Lee 459-405-HB mould. You can buy one cheaper than you can buy a hundred bullets.

You really need to get a look at the match rules before laying out any money.

Ed Hill · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:38:15 PM »

Howdy! I have the Williams FP, and I have not used it past 250 yds, but I really doubt it will get out to 500. Someone please speak up if they have different results. Yes you can use Lee dies, and while you are waiting for the Montanan to show up, check this site http://www.the45-70book.com/
for BP information. Read the tips and FAQS. The Montanan has several good BP links on his site http://the_montanan.tripod.com/ and was very helpful in coaching me through my first BP loads.

E.D.

JPH45 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2005, 01:53:50 PM »

He'll be fine with the H&R/NEF in SASS shoots, they are a more relaxed bunch than the guys who shoot NRA BPCR about this rifle.

Wesson, of Harrington and Wesson did indeed make a breakopen action in the 1870's. Problem is, the current H&R?NEF model does not share its ancestors action in detail, as a result the BPCR boys get quite upset about it. Seems they want original or actual replicas of rifles made prior ot 1890 or so. Funny thing though, the 1885 Browning has not one leaf spring in it, while one'd be hard presed to find an 18885 Winchester Hiwall with coil springs. Go Figure. All this is too bad, a lot of otherwise would be players are out of the game. Some clubs/matches do allow what they call fun guns but your scores won't count for beans with NRA sanctioned BPCR.

The SASS shooters on the otherhand seem to love anything that is old timey in nature, and the SB2 fits that bill to the tee. Is it a true replica? No. Is a authentic to the period? Certaily in spirit, and with it's Wesson predecessor, even in concept. So the SASS boys turn a blind eye, in the spirit of having a bit of fun. Of course they accept the Ruger single actions revolvers too and nothing about them except the concept and the apperance is authentic.

A lot of this is why I quit shooting the games back in the late eighties. They became equipment races. The SASS gals and guys seem to have the right approach, if it is true in replication or in spirit, bring it along and let's play. More power to SASS!!!! May they introduce many thousands to the shooting sports and the fun of shooting in general.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:09:23 PM »

Quote from: Big Shooter Mike

Howdy Pards,

I have been reading these posts here for some time and finally decided to ask this very informed forum about 45-70.
You see I shoot cowboy acction. This year IL will have the first state cowboy shoot and one of the side matches will be a long range shoot.
I don't know how far, probably no more that 300 yards.
Sooo... I decided to enter the competition. Not having enough $$ for Sharps, Penderssolies or whatever, I start to read more about 45-70 and I found out about NEF/H&R 45-70.

The Buffalo Classic is an excellent long range side match rifle. With its current sights you can shoot most matches except the long range buffalo match because the sights are not historicly correct. Do a search on here and you can find all the information about proper sights for the Buffalo Classic to compete in any match out to 1,000 yards

Quote

Now my questions to you are?
- What is the difference between NEF and H&R? If I order one from my gun dealer should I say NEF or H&R Buffalo Classic.

NEF and the H&R versions of the 22" barrel rifles are shorter than the 32" barreled Buffalo Classic.

Quote

- Can I use the single shot to shoot more than 300 yards?

Not with its present rear sight.

Quote

- I will be getting into reloading them 45's and I'm looking for dies, black powder and bullets. What will be a good source of supplies and what should I buy. I have a Lee Turret. Can I use Lee dies?

Yes you can use your presant set-up for reloading. Now for BP bullets there are several places to look. Bonus Bullets is a good place to start using the 45/70 415-gr 3 Lube RNFP and if ya feel up to shootin a 500-gr, 500 3 Lube RN 1881 Govt.

Quote

I know that I have to experiment so what should I be looking for?

The bore riding design bullets with BP work the best and of course you must use bullets that are lubed for BP.

Quote

- What about the sights? I heard that H&R comes with William's sights. Can I use those in cowboy shoot? Are the sights OK for 100-600 yards?

The current sight that comes with the Buffalo Classic has its limits. I would not attempt to shoot past 175 to 200 with the current peep sight as it was not designed for mid range shooting. If you want to get serious about 600 yards you will need to put a sight that will elevate on the staff or ladder.

Quote

Thank you very much and I apologize for my little novel here.
BSM from IL

No problem and have a good one.

Jon

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:46:40 PM »

JPH that is exactlly why I just loaded 300 rounds of .357 LRNFPs It really dosn't matter if your any good or not as long as your safe and have fun.
I have two ruger SAAs a marlin .357 a russian double 12gauge and a H&R none of them were built in the 1800s but they kinda look like they could have been, and all together probably cost less than an original colt SAA. :cb1:

Cottonwood · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2005, 03:59:46 PM »

Quote from: Badnews Bob

JPH that is exactlly why I just loaded 300 rounds of .357 LRNFPs It really dosn't matter if your any good or not as long as your safe and have fun.
I have two ruger SAAs a marlin .357 a russian double 12gauge and a H&R none of them were built in the 1800s but they kinda look like they could have been, and all together probably cost less than an original colt SAA. :cb1:

Frank Wesson was well known for his hinged breech and falling block rifles. In Fact, his hinged breech carbine was actually accepted for use as an official secondary arm during the Civil War. His nephew, Gilbert Harrington, was a bright young firearms designer, and was granted a patent for a new mechanism to eject spent cases from revolvers. Together in 1871, they began a company called Wesson & Harrington in Worcester, Massachusetts. This company would continue until 1875 when Frank Wesson sold his interest to William Richardson, creating the Harrington & Richardson Arms Company, one of the most prolific manufacturers of firearms ever to operate in America. The Wesson & Harrington rifles and shotguns of today celebrate this fine tradition in this historic region of firearms manufature.

There are some likeness to the Frank Wession breech break carbine design still. Although many nay-sayers would like to preach otherwise :roll: Wession & Harrington produced both shotguns and centerfire rifles in their hayday.

Big Shooter Mike · « **Reply #13 on:** February 16, 2005, 09:50:33 AM »

Thank you Montanan for your input.
I'll place my order with the gunstore and I'll be looking for a new site to go to 600 yards.

Thanks to all who help me decide on the 45-70.

Good shooting to all.