Author Topic: Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra  (Read 760 times)

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Offline Ricci Price

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« on: March 19, 2005, 02:43:23 PM »
I've been playin with this thing too long finally redone the locking lug hinge end .I felt like it was originally milled to close to the barrel.I built this area with a tig welder and stainless 309 filler rod also used a spray mister to keep inside of barrel cool,remilled,hand lapped to fit like a glove.Also added a spring to the inside of latch spring,maybe this will help my groups a little.Was shooting around 1.5-2" with 100 grain bullets

Offline quickdtoo

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2005, 02:51:29 PM »
Fred M has some good tips on his H&R Tweaks page....He had a tough time getting his to shoot good, even with all that he did to it. My 25-06 Ultra shoots sub moa with the right ammo, Fed 115gr NP and the Hornady 117gr BTSP, first 2 shots of a 3 shot group are almost touching, the 3rd opens the group to just less than an inch.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/tweakultra.html
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Offline Mac11700

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2005, 03:43:48 PM »
I guess I'm one of the lucky ones...this is the first group with the first shots I fired out of my Ultra 25-06...Winchester Supreme 115 grain Silver Ballistic tips...



The first shot after bore siting it was in the x...the next 3 were clover leafing it at .298" with the 5th shot opening up slightly more...not bad for the first shots thru the gun...

Here's what the total group went I copied this over from my origianl post..

Quote
but I'll let you know how it did.....awwwwsooooome...after bore siting thru the barrel and adjusting the scope at 100 yards...my first shot hit just low of the x in the bull ...and my next 4 shots went ...0.680" just below with 3 overlapping and i almost touching...using the Winchester 115 grain Ballistic tip black bullets...so total size group went 0.840"....... Surprised and this is the first groups from the gun...with a very lite coat of oil in it too


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Ricci Price

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2005, 06:51:20 PM »
I wish I was that lucky,this thing of mine was not right when I got it ,so maybe what I've done will help I know it did not lock good ,until now ,when it closes it snaps shut with no light between faces (barrel and frame).The thought of sending back crossed my mind but I like to tinker with things myself. I did read all of FredM's stuff thats what gave me some good insight on what to do. You guys offer some good advice. I could shoot lighter bullets real good but when went to heavier bullets it would string .I GONNA MAKE THIS THING LIKE 115 GRAINERS ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!!!!

Offline Mac11700

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2005, 06:57:36 PM »
Ricci:

Clean the barrel out real good...use a-little flitz on it and handlap the bore...and then flush and clean with shooter choice...then try some of the Winchesters Supreme's...I'll bet you'll be glad you did...


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Mamba_Driver

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2005, 03:55:54 AM »
Quote from: Mac11700

Clean the barrel out real good...use a-little flitz on it and handlap the bore...and then flush and clean with shooter choice...then try some of the Winchesters Supreme's...I'll bet you'll be glad you did...
Mac


Mac,

What do you mean by handlapping the bore?  What do you use to do it and how is it done?

Thanks. :D

Offline Mac11700

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2005, 05:51:28 AM »
I use a oversized bore mop suturated with Flitz polish...you can use a bronze brush with a patch wrapped around it...but it has to fit tight in the bore...I swab the bore between 35-75 times...reapplying the Flitz after about 15-20 passes.. I flush the barrel with Rem Oil and patch it out...then .I then take a nylon brush...and scrub the bore repeatedly using shooters choice... followed by another cleaning and flushing with Rem-Oil....it will take a while to get all of the Flitz polish out...and I make sure I have every bit of it cleaned out before moving on....I'm real carefull to not polish the chamber but 1 time and very lightly...and I only polish the chamber if I have had any cases sticking...it isn't a quick process...and you will go thru a ton of patches till you get all the black and blue crud out of it...but the results are well worth your efforts...my barrels are a-lot easier to clean now than before...and all of them shoot MOA or better...

I'll use the Flitz after using any moly coated bullets...when wanting to shoot regular jacketed ones..that way I won't waste any ammo...I learned my lesson on this one a while back...

You can also use JB non abrasive polish and JB bore bright...they work really good too...you'll still need to clean it good after each of the JB pastes...either one will do the job for you...and if you do this first prior to shooting...thenyou know your starting off with a perfectly clean smooth barrel...and can save you some ammo on geting it to shoot good...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2005, 09:04:17 AM »
Ricci Price.
Lateral and horizontal stringing is the result of poor latch engagement and or poor fit of the action in the receiver. Fitting the latch and installing a stronger latch spring will take care of of stringing.

Real tight groups can,t be had with an oversize barrel, nor with a barrel bore that is smaller in diameter at the chamber than at the muzzle.

0.0015 oversize seems very common together with the groovers that are only 0.002 deep one is lucky to get 1-1/4" groups with any load, and no amount of polishing will improve that. I found the barrel that I have seen are very smooth and require little break in.

For along time I have been puzzled why the oversize barrel. During my visit to the SHot Show this year I talked to the Green Mountain Barrel people that supplies H&R with barrel blanks.

From what I gathered is that the barrel blanks are supplied non stress relieved. When a barrel as such is contoured, chambered, polished, welded etc. the barrel will relax and shed some of the stress outward.
This will increase all interior dimension. The amount varies from end to end depending of how much metal is removed. Granted this will not make the barrel unusable.

Simply put, an economy product. Stress relieving costs money. This is my observation. In a cheap rifle it is no big deal to loose a few feet/sec and a 1-1/2" group it still gets the job done in good style.

I also noticed that the Rossi and the Baikal SS rifles use the same lock up as the H&R but with substantial more lockup force. Though I would not buy neither one. Very poorly designed for scope mounting and ill looking overall.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2005, 10:30:14 AM »
Hey Fred, are you back now??? Nice to see your smiling face again!!

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Broken Scope

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2005, 10:39:42 AM »
Ive done most of the tricks to mine and am getting3/4 to 1in groups with the 75 gr v max reloads. It likes a dirty barrel and the loads are few and far between. So far mine doesnt seem to like heavier bullets but its main purpose is for varmits. Would I buy another ? No  Most of the loads that I try are in the 11/2 to 2in range with the light bullets. I will have to try the win bts.   How much Of the shiny part of the barrel latch is catching on your guns?

Offline Ricci Price

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2005, 01:51:08 PM »
Hey Fred you say that green mountain builds these barrels I wonder if they button it or cut it (rifling).If it cut there should be no internal stresses pushing outward.If it is button then I would have to say there is some stresses left behind.I understand that a choked barrel would be a better shooter(barrel being smaller at the end than at chamber)I haven't done any measuring (groove depth and bore diameter),maybe that will be the next step I take ,of course there is nothing I can do about that if it is off, well maybe I can build my own barrel (quarter inch hole 30 inches long plus straight man that sounds ruff)in the process of building a muzzle loader barrel right now(half inch hole 32 inches long and very straight and there was nothin to drillin it)

Offline quickdtoo

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2005, 02:00:32 PM »
I believe their barrels are button rifled....

http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/catalog.aspx?catid=BarrelBlanksRound
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Ricci Price

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2005, 02:12:56 PM »
Yep thats what I thought they would take the easy way out ,cut rifling is more expensive to build though. The muzzleloader barrel I am building will be broached maybe it will turn out ok.

Offline Fred M

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2005, 03:25:55 PM »
Yes Tim I am back home since yesterday. What a 9 hour drive  through Montana from Butte to Calgary 24F with snow and ice on the road.

Back to snow shoveling today, what a let down from 92F.

Yes the barrels are button rifled.

When the barrels are contoured this will change the bore dimension. Most really good barrels are double stress relieved.

When I did the 257 R from 223 I did all the outside shaping for the octagon barrel prior to reboring. I was thinking of having the barrel stress relieved before reboring but the barrel maker said that the little metal removed from the bore would not make any difference, and he was right the barrel is .257 on both ends bang on.

Now since I brought a set of dies back I can start making up a few loads and fire that gun.

Yes a 0.001 choke is very good but can only be done by expert lapping and careful cut rifling. Not worth the trouble and expense for a hunting rig.

Tim can you get me one of those torque screw drivers with inch/lbs?
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2005, 03:44:42 PM »
Fred, you have mail!!! :wink:
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Ricci Price

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Tinkering with the latch 25-06 ultra
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2005, 02:14:25 PM »
Shot it today ,shot four times, one inch clover leaf ,shot kinda quick (didn't have much time)first three shots all together last shot was about one inch higher than the rest(barrel heating?,shot all four within 3 minutes)cases looked alot better ,head ring was not as apparent, cases could not expand as much.I have come to the conclusion that lock up is everything.Maybe I will work on a lock that wont let move after being fired.Still need to do some more shooting