Author Topic: Some thoughts on the 223 Ultra (Read 931 times)

Bad Irv · « **on:** February 18, 2005, 05:51:00 AM »

Hi group. New poster here, though I've been reading for several months off and on. Last September I bought a new H&R 223 Ultra Varmint. Shortly thereafter I discovered this forum, and all of the great info on how to make these rifles shoot more accurately. I bought a 200 round pack of UMC 45 gr. hollow point ammo, mainly so I would have brass to reload. Reloading has always been the other half of this hobby for me. Well, after polishing the chamber and bore and free floating the barrel, the rifle shot minute of angle 5 shot groups fairly consistently with this factory ammo. I thought man, this thing is going to be a real tack driver with the right hand load. But after trying 4 different powders that are all supposed to work well with this caliber and 15 different bullets of various weights and makes, I realized that it's not going to be that easy. I found out early on that any bullet that could be seated close to the lands was too heavy for the rifling to stabilize, so that old trick had to be ruled out. Upon closer examination of the factory ammo, I noticed that while the bullets are seated about a mile away from the lands in this rifle, they are cannelured and crimped. In his book, Modern Reloading, Richard Lee states that the main reason for seating the bullet close to the lands is to provide a uniform shot start pressure. He then of course goes on to say that his factory crimp die accomplishes the same thing, just like the ammo manufacturers do. I've never been one to crimp rifle loads, as I never thought there was a need to. But with these rifles, it might be just the ticket. So I think I'll get a factory crimp die, and mainly work with the lighter bullet weights for a while. Has anyone here already tried this, and if so, how did it work out for you? Sorry about the length of this, I tend to be a bit long winded sometimes. :-)

Best, Irv

jeff223 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2005, 06:48:18 AM »

if i were you i would go out and buy a box of Nosler 55gr BTs.they shoot very good out of the handi rifles.the Hornady V Max bullets are very good too.ive shot lots of differant bullets and these two are the best.dont crimp and seat them long.my OAL is 2.5"

the group under the dime was shot with 55gr Nosler BTs the other one is a 30-30 group

AZ223 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2005, 06:53:06 AM »

From what I've read, most people don't try to seat the bullet close to the lands, for the reasons you mentioned. The 1:12" twist is too slow for longer bullets, so I kept my OAL to around 2.245" for the loads I've started with (matching most of the factory loads it seems to like), and I've had good luck so far. Those are with 50gr bullets, BTW, and so far I've only used the Lee Loaders to load with. I have a cast press on the way, and have been curious about the factory crimp, but given the lenth of throat in the handi's, I'm not sure it'll be practical to do that. If you try it, keep us posted as to the results you get.

Bad Irv · « **Reply #3 on:** February 18, 2005, 07:21:40 AM »

I think Mr. Lees reasoning for crimping the rifle loads is that you can provide a more uniform start shot pressure without seating the bullet long. The die doesn't cost very much, so I think I'll give it a try.

Irv

jeff223 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 18, 2005, 08:14:15 AM »

i guess you lost me here :?
what are you after in your handloads?accuracy?crimped or no crimp?
you stated the longer bullets wont shoot good out of a handi rifle barrel but the bullets i am using do in fact work very well not only out of my rifle but out of my sons as well.these are both handi rifles and the twist rate is the same as yours.i think when you get up over 60 grains you start having troubles,i dont know that for a fact but i have heard that.

as far as the crimping thing try it and i hope it works for you.i never crimp but the bullets im useing dont have a cannelure.this crimping thing will do nothing for you as far as accuracy.if you are having accuracy problems im sure its not the falt of your handloads.i would look into other things on your rifle.scope and bases,the crown on the muzzle of your barrel.trigger pull weight.the shooting rest.parallax in your scope.the list goes on and on.

by the way what size groups are you shooting with factory ammo?
what size groups are you shooting with your hand loads?
what bullets have you tried?
what 4 powders have you tried?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 18, 2005, 09:31:47 AM »

Although I don't have any handloading experience, everything I've read about crimping indicates that it can decrease shot to shot velocity variances and consistent velocity helps to improve accuracy. In other words, crimping alone may turn a so-so load into a great load. In my book, it's certainly worth a try.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #6 on:** February 18, 2005, 10:36:28 AM »

Irv you only a little over half there according to my Ultra. I tried 7 different powders, and every bullet known to man,before I tried the moly coated 40 gr. Vmax. and h335. 26.5 grs. of H 335,a bipod,a bussiness card strip in front and back of the forend lug,was the only way it would shoot around .5". If I change any one thing about it ,it goes back to 1" or more. Digger

Bad Irv · « **Reply #7 on:** February 18, 2005, 11:35:09 AM »

Thanks Ditchdigger, I'll give the 40 gr. Vmax molys a try, and also fool around with the business cards a bit. Now for jeff 223, I am definitely after accuracy here. The scope and mounts are solid, the trigger pull is about 4 lb and crisp, I use a mtm Predator shooting rest and the crown looks fine. The best group I've shoot with the factory ammo was .6 inch, with most groups under one inch. The best group with hand loads was just under one inch, with some as bad as 2 1/2 inch. I have been reloading for over 30 years and have had excellent results with other rifles, mostly bolt action. But I can see that this is a whole different ballgame. The powders I have tried are Varget, H335, Benchmark, and Reloader 10x. I have tried bullets from 50 gr. thru 55 gr. from Hornady, Sierra, Speer, and Barns. Thanks for the tip on the Noslers and the V Max. I know I have to try the lighter bullets too. My most accurate load was 25 gr. H335 under a Sierra 52 gr. BTHP Match. That's when I got the just under 1 inch group. When I went back to the factory ammo, the groups tightened back up. Go figure! Well, it looks like I've got a lot more work (fun) to do yet. :wink:

Irv

jeff223 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 18, 2005, 12:02:27 PM »

with 30 years of reloading under your belt im sure you will reach your perfect load for your gun in no time.i dont think the crimp will bring you down to where you want to be.

just where is good enough?what group size would you be happy with?

my gun shot about 1/2 inch groups right out of the box.never smaller than that.i had my smith cut a new crown and the group size dropped to almost half that.im shooting for a 5 shot 1/4inch group but i dont think i well ever do it with a handi rifle.3/8 center to center is the best so far and ive shot a number of them.

how much power do you have in your scope?you will need lots of power to cut group size down more

Bad Irv · « **Reply #9 on:** February 18, 2005, 01:35:49 PM »

jeff223, I'd be really happy if I found a load that would shoot 1/2 inch groups. But anything under 1 inch would be good enough for woodchuck hunting out to about 250 yards, which I consider to be the maximum practical range for this caliber. Right now I have a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope, but I have ordered a 6-18x40 Bushnell Banner for this rifle, it should be here next week. btw, 3/8 in group is pretty much a jagged hole and damned good shooting. I hope that I do that well someday. Thanks for your help.

Best, Irv

jeff223 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 18, 2005, 01:46:28 PM »

i think the new 6-18x scope will help you out alot.with the AO you will be able to take all the parallax out at a given yardage and that extra power will be nice for that precise aiming point each time.

Bad Irv · « **Reply #11 on:** February 18, 2005, 01:48:13 PM »

Of course the new 6-18 Banner is a 50mm scope. Sorry about the stupid typo.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2005, 03:22:23 PM »

Bad Irv; You probably already know this but you have to shoot 15 to 25 rds. of the moly loads to get the barrell just right for accurcy. If you give it a good cleaning afterwards you'll have it all to do over again. So don't clean it other than a dry patch through the bore. After accurcy starts to go away(about 80 rds. in mine) clean it in a normal way. You're going to love the scope,I've got 2 of them. Digger

James B · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2005, 03:38:55 PM »

I just got a box of 63 grain semi spitzer bullets to try. These are shorter than most 55 grain bullets. I won't be happy with the handi until I find one heavier bullet load that shoots one inch or better.

Bad Irv · « **Reply #14 on:** February 20, 2005, 01:37:45 PM »

OK, it looks like no one has tried crimping loads for the 223 rem. Ultra or Handi. I know that the Winchester USA Varmint ammo is crimped, as was the UMC 45 gr hp ammo that shot well in my Ultra. I know that the reason for this is so that the ammo will perform good in semi-autos, but I'm still curious
to know if this will help with accuracy, like Mr. Lee says in his book, Modern Reloading. I will buy a Lee Factory Crimp die and see what happens. I'll try several different loads, both crimped and uncrimped, and report the results here. This may take a few months as the weather here in central NY sucks right now as far as doing any range work, but I still think it's worth a try.

Best, Irv

PistolPete · « **Reply #15 on:** February 20, 2005, 02:17:45 PM »

Please let us know how the Factory Crimp die works; I would like to try one for the same reason you originially stated. I use one regularly in a Ruger #1 7x57 and it cut my groups in half. Thanks,

Pete

handirifle · « **Reply #16 on:** February 20, 2005, 04:20:47 PM »

Irv
My 223 UV settle in nicely, but I had polished the chamber and bore before ever firing a shot from it. I do think it helped speed it up.

Here is my best load, H335 27gr with 40gr Hornady VMax