Author Topic: History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III  (Read 3621 times)

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Offline Zachary

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« on: February 05, 2005, 02:45:23 AM »
I have said for the longest time that I believed that Leupold had been sitting on their laurels with their then current Vari-X series - which had remained essentially unchanged for, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 years?  

Yes, I know what some of you will say - why fix something that ain't broke.  Yup, I understand your point, but, then again, does something have to be broke before you can improve it?  During the "Vari-X years" other companies, like Bushnell and Nikon, for instance, came out with their Elites and Monarchs, respectively.  And Rainguard is a nice little feature to have on a scope.

Before the Monarchs came out, both the Pre-Monarchs and the Vari-X IIIs had 88% light transmission.  Yes,  I know that optical clarity, resolution, and brightness are not everything, but let's just talk about this for now.  So, all else being equal, for some, it was still a tough call between the pre-monarch and Vari-X between the Leupold starting getting more expensive.  Heck, I remember back in 1988, the 3.5x-10x-50mm matte in both the Nikon Pre-Monarch and Leupold Vari-X III were both $399 at a big sports store in Houston.  And not just this sports store, but many other stores too, and even big named catalogs too (remember that this was wayyyy before the internet.)  Then, sometime soon after 1988, the Leupolds starting getting more expensive.  Why?  Some people will tell you just because of the product, others will tell you just because of marketing.  At that point I had not owned any Leupolds, but several friends did.  Truth be told, neither the Nikons nor the Leupolds gave any of us any problems - they all tracked well, kept their groups, and were rugged.

Anyhow, I don't know why, but the prices on the Leupolds went up, and then Nikon came out with what we all know was the Buckmaster and the Monarch.  As far as I know, the Buckmaster is essentially the pre-monarch with 88% light transmission, yet it was now selling for a whole lot less, and the Monarch now had 95% light transmission and was selling for about what the pre-Monarchs sold.  Other than that, I think that, internally, the Buckmaster and Monarchs are the same.  Still, the Vari-X IIIs were still climbing in price.  

As a result, since my experience led me to believe that the Monarch was actually a better scope than the Vari-X IIIs (at least for my hunting styles and purposes), I bought Nikon scopes.  I later bought a few Vari-X III scopes with the Illuminated reticles because Leupold was one of the first companies to come out with illuminated reticles and I just loved that concept.  So I bought about 3 or so Vari-X IIIs.  Still, I was disappointed in the optics.  The Monarch's optics were better and much less expensive than the Vari-X IIIs.

So during the Vari-X years, yea, I bought some Vari-Xs, but I bought a bunch more Elite 4200s and Monarchs, as well as a couple of Burris Black Diamonds, Nightforce NXSs, and the like.

However, now that Leupold has come out with the new VX-III line, I may buy one, even though they are still more expensive than the Monarchs.  The optics are supposed to be much better, with something like 98% light transmission.  Oh, BTW, Leupold did come out with the technology of the LPS, so I am remiss in not mentioning that.  However, the LPS was a $1,000 scope and competed with the likes of Zeiss (pre-Conquest, meaning the REAL Zeiss scopes - the V/VM line), and Swarovski PH scopes.  It's a good thing I mention this here because the LPS had (has) 99.something light transmission.  Well, if the new VX-IIIs have 98% and the Monarchs and Elite 4200s have 95%, and the VX-IIIs are more competitive with the 4200s and Monarchs, then why would anyone spend another $500 or so to get the LPS for an extra 1.something percent light transmission???  While the LPS has a 30mm tube, I still don't think that it will, at least in my eyes, justify essentially double the price, but it might to some people because 30mm tubes offer greater internal adjustments and, for whatever reason, that may be important to someone, but not me.

One of the things that sets Leupold apart from the Elite 4200 is that the Elite 4200 is, on average, heavier and longer than a Leupold.  I sure wish that Bushnell would improve in this area.  Now, on some rifles this is not a big deal - I don't care about the extra length or weight.  However, on some rifles, it is important.  

Another important point is that the Elite 4200s generally have less eye relief than the Leupolds.  Granted, everyone should take this with a grain of salt because the 4200s essentially have constant eye relief whereas the Leupolds have variable eye relief.  This means that, say the 4200 has 3.3 inches of constant eye relief, anywhere from 2.5x-10x, and the Leupold may have 4.5 inches (at 3x) to 3.6 inches at (10x).  So, if you are hunting at lower powers, then you have more eye relief.  However, if you shoot at higher magnifications, then you have less eye relief.  So if you shoot a Leupold at high magnifications, then the difference is not that great when shooting an elite 4200 at any magnification.

I am going to be receiving my Kimber 8400 Montana in 300WSM  soon, and this is a relatively light rifle.  I need a scope that will not only be lighter, but also shorter so as to balance the rifle.  Also, this will primarily be my elk gun (hopefully :grin: ) so I will be using lower magnifications.  In this instance, the VX-III is going to be my choice.  Yes, I know that it will cost noticeably more money than a Monarch and Elite 4200, but it is kinda essential in my case.

Well, that's it for now.  As a moderator, I just wanted to give our members and guests a little history about these scopes, kinda like an author writes a column in a magazine. I like to go the extra mile in my capacity as a moderator, especially when sometimes my traveling and busy schedule prevent me from participating as much or often as I would like.

My question is whether any of you have used the new VX-III scopes.  If so, how do you like them?  Do you think that they are a definite improvement over the older Vari-X line?  I guess our sponsors could at least tell us how the new scopes have improved optically.  Jon?  Your thoughts?  And then, are there any of you that have purchased these scopes and actually used them in the field?  Your thoughts?

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get the new VX-III in 2.5x-8x-36mm for my Kimber, but I would like to hear any experiences or opinions that you guys may have.

Thanks for reading.

Zachary

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2005, 03:10:01 AM »
The Leupold 2.5-8 really is one of my favorite scopes. Outrageously expensive but very nice. Not necessarily the brightest or best but a very nice package of long eye relief, light weight and compact size for the power range. A power range I might add I see as ideal for big game hunting applications.

Zach if you like lighted reticles you really should give the Mueller dot scopes a look. The little lighted dot is so vastly superior to a full lighted reticle there really just is no comparison.


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Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2005, 03:18:33 AM »
I just got a VXIII 1.5X5X20 and it is a great scope IMO. It is very clear and a lot of eye relief. I think they are doing a great job at Leupold with them.  :D

Graybeard it is obvious you are not a Leupold fan.  :D
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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2005, 04:05:23 AM »
Quote
Graybeard it is obvious you are not a Leupold fan.  :D


Well actually more like a former fan. At one point I was one of those Leupod snobs. Just had to have them on all of my guns. I was under the mistaken impression they really were THE BEST. They aren't. Good yes. Excellent even perhaps. But the best they are not and for sure they are no longer the best buys.

I think Leupold has done the consumer a grave disservice in their current pricing policy. They did it for one reason, well OK maybe two reasons in my opinion. Number one is they did it for the big mail order retailers like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops. They always had higher prices listed than most smaller outfits and wanted a larger share of the market but wasn't gonna get it with higher prices than everyone else. So Leupold folded to pressure from them and pegged the price same for everyone. I think this meets the legal definition of price fixing personally and think legal action should be taken against Leupold, Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops by the government.

Perhaps they also did it to help their own profits. I suspect they raised prices to their distributors at same time. But since I think they are now losing market share to other makers I suspect this one was counter productive and only the big retailers gained anything.

These days I find I go to Bushnell scopes more often than all others combined. Price is better and quality is as good in my opinion as any plus they have the same warranty as Leupold. To me it's a no brainer on most of them.

Now there are some things Leupold does more right than anyone else in my opinion. I love the lighter weight of their scopes in general and the more compact size of the in general. For some applications I like the longer eye relief. So for some of my applications I still chose Leupold but for an ever decreasing number of applications however.


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Offline Redhawk1

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2005, 08:36:59 AM »
I guess I am a  Leupold snob.   :yeah: :toast:  :D
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Offline Dave in WV

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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2005, 09:12:19 AM »
My last scope was a VX II 1x4. I compared it to the VX III 1.5x5 and the stats for the VX III came up short for me.  The VX II actual magnification is 1.6 (1) - 4.2 (4) and the eye relief is 4.3"-3.8". The VX III stats are 1.5 (1.5)- 4.5 (5)  and eye relief of 4.4"-3.6". The field of view for the VX II is better too. Some folks are pleased with the VX III and I'm glad for them. I couldn't see paying another $140 for the VX III. For the money for and my use the VX II 1x4 blew the competition away. BTW, I did have the Duplex reticle replaced by Premier Reicle. I had a German #4 installed.
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2005, 09:20:13 AM »
Quote
I guess I am a Leupold snob.


You and lots of others. Nothing wrong with that. Leupold scopes are "good enough". They will serve you fine, no doubt what so ever about that. They always have and no doubt always will. But I don't think the current pricing structure is realistic in relation to features offered when compared to other brands.

Once I saw them at the top of the heap. They are still good but I don't think they are at the top anymore. Solid products but over priced.


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Offline hunt127588

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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2005, 05:29:22 PM »
Between having various scopes at some point in time of the following:

Bushnell Banner
Bushnell Trophy
Burris Compact
Nikon UCC Monarch
Leupold Vari-X II
Leupold Vari-X III

I have to say that back in the 80s/90s, Leupold truly was the scope that I enoyed using the most as it was very clear edge to edge and could see more during dawn/dusk. However, as Graybeard pointed out, Leupold has made it tough to buy Leupolds for every gun I own. Therefore, I have started experimenting with other brands of scopes. I have to say that while I like my Leupolds, I think there are other great scopes out there. I really think the Burris product is a fine product and am fixing to spend my $$$ on a Fullfield II. I like the Nikons but they don't seem quite a clear to me. That's just my $.02 as I'm no expert...Just one that enjoys time in the field.

P.S. One thing that you can't beat is any company that provides a lifetime warranty. I think Leupold deserves an A+ in that category.

Offline Dave in WV

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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2005, 04:21:12 AM »
Zachary, since you have shown the ability to get small groups with your .375 with a 1x4 scope you have opened up possibilities you may not have considered. A  2.75x5, 1.5x6, or 2x7 are well within your needs. Elk are larger than whitetail deer and unless you're planning to shoot over 300 yards how much magnification do you need? Burris makes a dandy 2.75x5 Safari scope with extra eye relief that weighs about the same as the Leupold. ( Burris, you love them or hate them) Their 1.5x6 Signature select weighs 2.6oz more. Nikon's 2x7 Monarch is about the same size and weight with a bit more eye relief. The Monarch 3x9 is one oz. heavier and one inch longer. Leupold makes good scopes but to me their standard Duplex is too small for my taste. My VX II is a good scope. With a bolder reticle it became a great scope for me.  :grin:
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Offline Zachary

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« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2005, 06:36:24 AM »
You know something Dave?  I can't believe that I'm going to say this, but you just said something that not even I myself noticed.

My .375H&H Mag is probably the most accurate rifle I (or probably anyone else) owns.  1/4", and sometimes 1/8" groups at 100 yards is almost impossible to believe.  I once read an article by Boddington where he shot one group with a .375H&H that was, believe it or not, also 1/8".  So I'm not the only one.  Yes, my .375H&H has been customized with McMillan stock, pillar and glass bedded, etc., but that's some outstanding accuracy.

But the point you made is one that I have not myself noticed.  I got that kind of accuracy at 100 yards with a 1.4x-4.5x scope.  Granted, the scope was set on 4.5x (the highest on that particular scope), but now I am really starting to question higher magnifications.

Some of you may read this and may think that I am kidding, but I'm not.  I think that this now may prove some people's point that higher magnifications are more hype than anything else.  However, to fully test this theory out, I think that next time that I am at the range I am going to purposely set my scopes down to about 4x or so and see how my groups go.  If they are just as tight as my groups at the higher settings, then I may start changing my practice a bit.  Granted, longer shots can justify higher magnification, but I really don't shoot much beyond 100 yards anyway.

I can't believe that I didn't notice this myself.  I feel kinda stupid about it.  What a revelation.  I think GB may be proud of me. :)

Zachary

Offline Dave in WV

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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2005, 06:51:50 AM »
After a couple of years posting my thoughts and experiences (limited) , I still believe you can do as well in the field with less magnification in big game hunting IF you use good optics (price not being the controlling factor). With lower magnification you can get more eye relief and a wider field of view. I can't shoot worth two hoots and if I get a good group I usually can't repeat it. I did get a 1 3/16" three shot group with my 7600 yesterday with the scope on 4x (highest setting) with some loads I worked up. IMHO the rifle will do better. Accuracy is the firearm, ammo, and shooter combined. I'm usually the weak part.  :oops:
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Online Graybeard

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« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2005, 07:24:44 AM »
Quote
I can't believe that I didn't notice this myself. I feel kinda stupid about it. What a revelation. I think GB may be proud of me. :)


Yes indeed. Especially so since I've been telling you for so long those huge high power scopes are more handicap and hinderance than help.  :eek:

Long ago using a Leupold 2X on a 14" TC 7-30 Waters barrel I fired a 1.5" group at 250 yards. Same day I fired several under 2" groups at the same 250 yards. Sure that was with a handgun but the fact remains it was sub MOA with a 2X scope. So what's so hard about hitting a big game animal with 4X to 6X to 300 yards that is about as far as most have any business shooting anyway?


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Offline JoeBru

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« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2005, 08:25:48 PM »
Zachary, I don't own a VX111 but I do own 2 x V111's in 2.5-8.
When I purchased the second scope. I went into the store with my original scope, then 2 years old. The shop attendant took out four 2.5x8s, one was a V111, three were VX111's.  
We compared scopes for a good half hour, it's a big old shop with plenty of dark corners and small lettering on old signs etc.  
Both the attendant and myself picked the V111s over the VX111s and that's what I came home with.
Admittedly a shop comparison isn't the same has hunting, but, if anyone is looking for significant difference between the V111s and the VX111 IMO they are going to be disappointed.

Offline High Brass

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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2005, 01:59:46 AM »
I own a Leupold VariX-III 2.5-8X36 and it is a great scope.  If money wasn't an issue and I was in the market for another scope, I don't know that I'd buy another one.  They're great and I don't knock them but for the money involved, I think that my Nikon Monarch 3-9X40 is as good or slightly better in some areas.  It definately is brighter and clearer and has plenty of eye relief at 3.5".  In all honesty I think that the Nikon Monarch is the smarter money.  I know that lots of folks here may wish me to walk the plank on that one, but I'm too stupid to the $200+ difference in performance between to two.

Offline pastorp

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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2005, 06:54:49 AM »
I have felt for years that the Varix-11 and now the VX-11 is the best value for the cost in the Leupold line.

I agree with Graybeard and some others that most people want more magnification than they can really use under field conditions. Anything over 6 power is more than I can hold steady under field conditions. Most of my shooting is on 2 or 3 power.

If you guys want a real value in a scope try a Swift premier. IMO of course. Regards, Byron
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Offline De41mag

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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2005, 01:13:30 PM »
Zachary;

I don't come to the optics post to often. Just was surfing when I seen your post.
First of all, I have one VariX-III. It is the 2.5X8X36. It's a very nice scope, but my other scopes stay on the rifles more than this one.
Just mounted it on a Rem. Mod. 7FS in 7mm-08. Had a fixed 4X on there before, but changed to the VariX-III because of going out to a PD shoot in June of this year hopefully.
As for your groups, with the 375H&H, yes I believe you. And this is the truth, my best groups have been using a 4X fixed scope at 100yds, whatever the rifle was.
I shot one time, the Mod. 7FS, using Speer 130gr. SPBT's and H-414 and could cover the whole group with a dime. And this rifle has an 18-1/2" barrel.

Dennis  :D

Offline Zachary

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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2005, 03:53:48 PM »
Well Dennis, thanks for stopping by.  I'm glad to hear that you too got some of your best groups with a scope set at 4x.  I guess that means that I'm not crazy or anything. :)

Stop by more often here at the optics forum...we would be glad to hear from 'ya. :grin:

Zachary
:D

Offline Randy Flowers

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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2005, 03:54:04 AM »
Zachary I have some experience with the new VX-III Leupolds and I think they are an improvement over the Vari-X III that they replaced.

My buddies have bought four of the new VX-III scopes that are the 4.5X14 LR versions with 30mm bodies and40 mm bells.  These are GREAT scopes.  They are so darned sharp and clear that it is amazing.  They have the side focus that is so easy to use.

I myself did not feel the need for scopes with that much power.  I bought two of the new 3.5X10X40 VX-III scopes and really like them.  They are obviously clearer, and or, brighter than the older 2.5X8 and 3.5X10 Vari-X III models that I own.  The new finger adjustable windage and elevation knobs are good as is the new fast focus eyepiece.

All the scopes mentioned above were purchased with the new Boone and Crockett reticle.
That system really works!  We have shot at a gong that is a measured 400 yards using these scopes and they are right on the money.  

I took the two I bought to the range and shot groups using the 300 and 400 yard lines in the scope.  I came home and measured the location of the groups and then plugged that data into my Sierra ballistic program.  It indicated that those lines are on with my load at 305 and 405 yards.  Pretty darned close, I would say.

Yes, I think the new VX-III line is an improvement.  I had my doubts when they first came out.  I figured it was just a way to raise the price.  But I now feel they are an improvement.
Randy Flowers

Offline Zachary

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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2005, 03:53:00 PM »
Thanks for the post Randy.  Let me ask you, have you looked through a Nikon Monarch or Bushnell Elite 4200?  If yes, how would you compare the new VX-IIIs to them?

I'm thinking about getting the new VX-III 2.5x-8x to mount on my new Kimber 8400 Montana eventually.  If the gun is not as light as I think, then I might mount the VX-III 3.5x-10x-40mm, but certainly no larger.

Zachary

Offline Born2shoot48

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« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2005, 10:33:15 PM »
I gotta say Leupolds are the best.  Not just the best and toughest scope, but I love the lifetime warranty.   I had  a 3X9 on my old 30-06 and after many years of running down elusive prey in the rugged Alaskan wilderness, it became discolored, almost a purple.  I sent it to Leupold in hope that it could be refinished...they sent me a new scope.  I am a Leupold SNOB for life.

Offline Randy Flowers

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« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2005, 03:59:50 AM »
Zachary, I have to admit I have looked at the Nikon and Bushnell scopes but not enough to really judge them fairly.  I do thiink that the Bushnell 4200 line of scopes are entrely too large in structure, they are quite long and bulky.

For your usage the 2.5X8 Leupold might just be the ticket.  I own two of the older Vari-X III scopes in this power and it is a great big game scope.  And it is very compact in size.

Having said that, I took one of them off my 300 Wby Mag and replaced it with the 3.5X10.
I do not feel that this new scope is large enough or heavy enough to make any difference.  I wanted just a little more power for long shots and I wanted that new Boone & Crockett reticle.  (Which you can get in the 2.5X8 if you want.)  Even though the 3.5X10 is longer, it is still a good size.  I was able to mount it in a set of Leupold dual dovetail low rings.

I think you would be well pleased with the new VX-III scopes.  I have spent some time in the field comparing several of them to my older Leupolds and the new ones are brighter, have better resolution, and show less glare of lens flaring when shooting towards the sun.
Randy Flowers

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2005, 06:38:52 AM »
I bought one of the Bushnell 4200 series in the 4X16 to go on my .17 HMR.  I thought I'd try one as Greybeard is so high on them, and say's they're assembled in the USA......  
 
Great scope, fit and finish is beautiful.......the adjustments are smoother than my Leupolds......The optics are clear and bright.......that said........the thing is huge!    
 
I am still partial to the VX-III.......but for the money, the 4200 is definitely a winner.

So, I guess the point of this thread is that there are scopes out there that are so close to the same optically does the Leupold VX-III warrant the extra money?  I'd say a Leupold would be easier to resell, and bring a better used price than most other brands.......
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Offline Zachary

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2005, 03:51:11 PM »
Truth be told, my biggest grips about the Elite 4200s are that they are 1) longer and heavier than scopes of similar magnification, and 2) eye relief is generally shorter than most.

If the Elite 4200s could be improved in these departments, then I don't think that I would buy any other scope - regardless of price.

For the time being though, although I buy and use a lot of Elite 4200s, I think my Kimber will wear a VX-III.

Zachary

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2005, 05:56:24 PM »
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I thought I'd try one as Greybeard is so high on them, and say's they're assembled in the USA......


FOR THE RECORD: Graybeard has NEVER said they were assembled in the US. The Elites to the best of my knowledge at made in Japan.


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Offline victorcharlie

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History of the Leupold Vari-X III to VX-III
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2005, 02:33:46 AM »
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Bushnell is no less an American company than Leupold and likely no larger. AND they are actually not owned by any other larger corporation to my knowledge. True their product is primarily if not entirely made overseas but then really pretty much every company gets a large share of their materials overseas these days. As I understand it Burris is no less an American Manufacturer than is Leupold.


My mistake......so Bushnell is an American company?
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater