Author Topic: Winchester M1897 Hammer won't stay back (Read 1204 times)

Doc Lisenby · « **on:** February 24, 2005, 08:39:43 AM »

I have looked and looked without discovering exactly why the hammer on some Win97's won't stay cocked sometimes as you push the slide forward.
It appears to me that when the carrier rises that sometimes there is a space between the trigger and the sear. At other times there isn't.
I have heard a while back that all of these guns will need their sears and/or hammers replaced eventually.
I see where Midway has a sear for about $35 and Numrich has one for about half of this. I suppose that they are pretty popular if Midway has them.
Due to the interest in Cowboy Shootings, I expect a new interest in this old workhorse and I want to be ready to repair guns with this common defect.
In other guns I work on I will always suspect the sear/hammer junction if a hammer fails to stay cocked. I'm just not convinced that this is the problem with the '97. Have any of you repaired them by only replacing the sear?
Or do any of you have any ideas to help me understand why it is a sear problem and not a problem of the trigger not rising upwards sufficiently or the rear of the carrier ass'y with the assembled sear not descending far enough to contact the trigger?
I hate to just start changing parts when I can't see or imagine what is causing the problem.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2005, 08:58:42 PM »

The tail of the sear bears on the rear surface of the trigger.. if sufficiently worn the carrier may ride low enough in the action that the sear tail will be disengaged by the trigger as the action is worked. I've not seen this happen in a long while!! At the point this is happening the action wear has become quite severe. A general rebuild would likely be the best repair, but such a tightening is not an easy chore. Perhaps a slight shortening of the sear tail would aleviate the problem for a time? This is of course after we've checked to be sure the sear and hammer sear are both in good condition!!

Doc Lisenby · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2005, 03:02:13 AM »

Well, you proved to me that there is at least one member who knows what I am talking about and your answer is certainly a probability. I hated to admit that it had me buffaloed, but it did. When I posted this question, I expected to have to explain every detail to people who only understand M3 Submachine guns and the like.
Thanks gunnut! Shucking the partially assembled '97 trying to see what happens had let me know that my years of repairing firearms have taken a toll on my joints.
I went to a military school on this shotgun back in the '50's and never ran into this problem; but most of the ones I worked on weren't worn as badly as this one. I guess the carrier wear you mentioned was the causative culprit. I have misplaced my Winchester date of manufacture-serial number booklet, but I'll bet this one has gone through a couple of world wars. I went to the John N. museum in Utah and marveled at how meticulously he designed each part of his firearms. I can't imagine doing this work with hand files and a foot-treadle lathe.
Thanks again.
Doc

gunnut69 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2005, 07:35:54 PM »

My grandfather(paternal) died when my dad was quite young. Things were a little tight for money with 7 kids and since dad was one of the younger ones he went hunting. He hunted for the market for years. Mostly rabbits, ducks and quail..(some fur also) He told me more than once the a '97 could be checked by wiggling the back of the open bolt. Too much and it was time to trade! They are good shotguns but a bit complicated.. I sort of grew up with a M12. Love those pumps... I do the night guard duty at our gunshow and use a top folding 870 with a long magazine. I've not had to use it yet but several times is has gotten worrisome... Good luck to you and yours..

Doc Lisenby · « **Reply #4 on:** February 26, 2005, 04:03:16 AM »

I tried both of these 97's and there is a definite difference in the side movement of the bolts. The older one (marked on the slide as Model 1897) has about twice the movement as the one marked as a Model 97. While the bolts were open, I checked the forward-upper end of the channel in which the slide traverses and on the one giving the trouble, this area is worn much more. Probably enough to allow the lug on the slide to slip out of the groove. I checked the rear end of the slide and it is worn enough to allow disengagement from the channel. Sure enough, when I shucked it forward, the carrier will sometimes fail to rise completely into locking battery. Your idea about the sear not engaging the trigger is correct. The malfunction isn't due to the sear/trigger/hammer engagement but is caused by the excessive "slap" of the worn carrier movement. The two slide bars in modern trombone actions were most probably added as a resultant of recognizing such problems. I flat love the M12 but the single slide has caused me problems in the past. I think that a lot of shooters unconsciously torgue the slide handle when they close/open the action which results in unnecessary wear of the slide/bolt/carrier interface. I agree with you that the 870 is an excellent inexpensive slide-action and would be my personal choice for doing what you do. Second choice would be the Mossberg series.
Your Dad gave you valuable advice, we just proved it. Experience is hard to replicate at a workbench or by watching TV sporting shows. Thanks a lot for passing it on to me.
Doc

gunnut69 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 26, 2005, 05:32:24 PM »

You sir are most certainly welcome if I've helped in some small way. It surely seems experience is a painful thing when I try to get all the joints moving each morning.

I too love the M12 and have seen the worn nearly to death and still shuckin'. I've a trap gun in the shop now. Owned by a young man who got it from his grandfather. Sad thing is I knew the GRANDFATHER!! The young man complained of the gun slam firing. I can't get it to do it but have an idea. The old gentleman who had owned the weapon had the trigger pull taken down and I'm gonna bet the youngster isn't releasing the trigger all the way and she's firing as she locks.. Can't 'fix' that can we so I think I'll add a bit of pull to see if it corrects the problem.. Have a great day..

Doc Lisenby · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2005, 07:10:15 AM »

I had a collector who wanted to see a 20 ga. M12 which I mentioned I had acquired, say that he liked the M12. He used to have one which he used to demonstrate how rapidly he could empty the magazine by just holding the trigger back and shucking it.
I showed him that this one wouldn't do that and he said that it must be broken. I suspect that it is common malfunction.
I don't know about the M12 Trap version but Remington put a special hammer, sear and trigger in their M870TC. I don't know but maybe the M12 Trap had an extra light trigger pull which could wear prematurely over time. One thing I do know is that Arnold Reigger, one of the best shots in trap shooting history, only used one single M12 to establish himself as a legend. Others like the three Poindexter brothers and Phil Ross cleaned a lot of clocks on the trap range with their M12's.
Instances of slam firing in the M12 are usually due to that only big problem with it, broken firing pins. I have changed several over the years.
By the way the M12 was designed by T.C. Johnson, not John M. Browning as I have heard claimed. That's unusual for a firearm which has close to two million manufactured.
I've enjoyed our little discussion and am glad there are some people still around who have lived in times when we loved and admired these types of shotguns and enjoyed local hunting with them and/or relied on them to put food on the table.
God Bless You.
Doc

gunnut69 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2005, 08:43:57 PM »

I checked the sear notches and they're clean and crisp. The pins are nice and tight and everything moves ok. I'll clean it a bit more(had to let it soak a bit) and I still bet its the shooter malfunctioning, not the M12. Still, I hadn't thought of the firing pin. I've seen that myself, I'm getting awfully forgetful... I don't believe it was truly a slam fire with the gun firing out of battery, the young man just didn't seem 'impressed' enough to have had that happen. I suspect it was the gun simply firing as it locked. I never owned a 20 gauge M12 but espected them to act as do others and for the hammer to fall as the bolt locks into battery..Why did your 20 not follow the norm?

Doc Lisenby · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2005, 04:34:37 AM »

My 20 ga. M12 functions as intended. I probably mistook the collector's statement that it should fire (regardless of whether the trigger was depressed or not) when the slide is moved forward into battery.
I don't hold the trigger back. I recoil with any shoulder mounted firearm. A habit coming from years of competitive shooting with the Garand in the off-hand position. My second shot would be off the point of aim. This characteristic of the M12 isn't useful to me personally.
Your young shooter should learn that modern shotguns are more forgiving but I have seen some of them and you probably have also that will "double" sometimes. This is more common in "Jamamatics" though.
He probably isn't a polished shotgun shooter and is what I call an "agile spastic". Lot of them around these days. Probably due to the "Rambo" influence. When I had to clear wooded wasteland and grub stumps all day to buy enough ammo for a hunt, I was very careful not to waste any of it. We bought shotgun shells individually from the hardware store. One of my young customers buys shells by the case and his guns show it.
He isn't interested in reloading either, which was necessary for me to save enough money to continue shooting. He is amazed at the condition of my firearms which I used before his dad was born. My personal M12 which has a Cutts Compensator on it draws a lot of attention at the local range. It has never been fired by holding the trigger back when shucking it that I know of.
Oh well, gotta start the week with a dam' 22 semi-auto which has enough wax and burnt powder in it by shooting cheap bulk packaged discount store "high velocity" ammo to "concrete pack" the action. I see where Brownells has a new bore cleaner which costs ten times as much as "Ed's Red" and does marvelous things. Sure it will. I better get the KY Jelly out before I order it.
I see where you are getting a little yankee sunshine today. Good day for some hot cornbread and collards, eh? Spring's a-coming. The daffodils are blooming here.
Doc

gunnut69 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2005, 06:47:54 AM »

Doc

It's sure nice to talk with folks like you.. I love cornbread but the diabetic diet limits me sometimes.. It's spitting snow today but shouldn't amount to anything. 22 Rimfires are dirty littlle things. The autos are the worst because of the blow back action. the residual bore pressure blows unburned powder into the action. I've a coupleof box guns in the shop, a 550 Rem and a 511x Rem. Both were taken apart and reassembled with spare parts remaining.. They're a pain..but I've done both models before. Have a good day! God Bless!

Jerry