25-20 Questions

[Jim B.]

I am interested in hearing from folks with experience with the 25-20.  Specifically, the versatility of the cartridge in single shot or bolt action rifles.  I am looking for an interesting cartridge that can be loaded down with cast bullets for squirrels and loaded hot with jacketed bullets for coyotes at 150 yds.  Any advice is appreciated!  Jim B.

[260 AAR]

I took a H&R Handi Rifle and line it to 25-20 for a customer. It was a 22 Hornet to begin with. He really likes it and kills the h--l out of small game with it. If you have a beater 223  in a rem or Win or something, consider the 25 Copperhead or 25/223. Both of these are great to load for and will also shoot the lead bullet pretty good too. Nice thing is you can load it way down for lead and them spice it up enough for a close in shot on a smaller deer like the Blacktails we got here. I build anywhere from 5 to 12 25/223s each year. So far everyone is pleased. Something to consider.

Aloha, Mark

[Jim B.]

Mark,

Thanks for the information.  Do you know anyone who has explored the upper potential of the 25-20 in modern rifles?  I am not trying to make it into a 25-06 but is seems most of the published load data is tamed down for the older lever guns that were often chambered for this cartridge.  I am thinking of a TC Encore barrel so would have lots of strength - the brass strength would probably be the limiting factor.

What is gained over the 25-20 or the .223 with the 25-223?  I am curious because I am not familiar with this wildcat.

Jim B.

[Somerled]

Jim B.

I have looked high and low for data for .25-20 data for the Contender. I didn't find any. I started with Hodgdon data for the Speer 75 FP bullet. I backed off a little from the top loads and sustituted 75 grain HP bullets. I also found some data in Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" which he developed in part in a converted Winchester 1885 using 75 and 87 grain jacketed bullets. His data gave me an idea of what depth I should try for loading the longer, pointed bullets.

There's more data available for cast bullets. I've never pushed them much past 1,400 fps. The data in manuals is geared more toward 20 or 24-inch barreled 1892 Winchesters. I also found an article by John Taffin with some cast bullet load suggestions. He had good results with H4227, which works well for me as well.

The best I can get out of the 75-grain HPs is around 2,100 fps. The best accuracy comes about with lower I'm thinking that isn't going to make them expand well enough on coyotes and the feral dogs we have around here.

[Jim B.]

Somerled - Looks like we are having the same conversation on two forums!  I can't believe I forgot to check "Pet Loads" - I'll read up on it tonight.  I am interested in knowing what kind of group sizes you were getting and what COL was working the best for you with spitzers in your Fox Ridge barrel. Jim B.

[Somerled]

Jim B:

I answered you on the other posting. The COL I am using on the 75-grain HPs is 1.78 inches.

I can't find the data where I got an average of 2,100 fps. I do remember the SD was real high and accuracy was poor. That seems to be the case with many of the powders I have tried. I get the best results when I back down the charges.

The only exception is Reloader 7, the slowest-burning powder I have tried. The .25-20 is interesting to experiment with.

Don't believe the old tale about .25-20 brass being weak. Even the hottest loads extract freely. The chamber must be slop-free because it just doesn't take much effort to resize the cases. I think some say the .25-20 case is weak after they collapse a few while seating cast bullets. I use a Lyman Type M expansion die for the cast bullets.

As for the .223 necked up to .257, I've seen data in a couple of manuals for the .25 Kimber. I think it is pretty much the same creation. It may be based on the .222 Remington Mag. It has just a hair more capacity.

[Blackhawk44]

.25 Kimber is on .222 Mag case as said, but has the shoulder blown forward picking up several grains capacity over .223 case.  For .25/223 or .25 TCU use data from Hornady and Hogdon manuals for 6mm TCU and use same bullet weights.  Same bullet weight in larger bore normally shows slightly lower pressure due to less bore friction from a shorter length bullet.   Have only used factory or equivalent loads in my 10" Contender.  Soft report, no flash, shoots flat and Death & Destruction on jackrabbits.

[Somerled]

Thanks for clearing that up, Blackhawk44. I have been thinking about getting another .257 or 6.5mm barrel for my G2 Contender rifle that would have more reach and could handle whitetail deer. The .25-20 is legal for deer in my state. But what's legal and what's right isn't always the same.

[Leftoverdj]

I'm shooting a Savage 23 in .25-20, mostly as a plinker and small game rifle. The only modern bolt .25-20s that I know of are a short run of Kimber singleshots, but you have have to hunt hard and pay dear to get one.

With the Lyman 67 grain GC bullets at about 1400 fps, the .25-20 is unsurpassed as a small game rifle. It was also a pretty decent 150 yard groundhog gun while the lamented Speer 60 grain pointed bullets were available. I've played a little with 75 grain spitzers, but have not killed any game with them.

If you do settle on a  small .25, check the cast bullet forum and search on .25-20. I am coordinating a group buy of six cavity moulds in both GC and PB configuration and there are still a few moulds unbespoken.

[Blackhawk44]

Somerled, have a barrel in 25 TCU (25-223 improved) but have not had time to work up loads.  Data supplied plus Hogdon and Hornaday 6mm TCU data indicate you can get a 100gr Ballistic Tip up to 2000-2100fps.  Kind of a mini-30 Herrett.   Probably wouldn't try anything over 100yds.  87gr Remington might be a deer bullet at these speeds, but haven't tried.  Reports indicate cast bullets work well at 1500-1800fps.  Almost forgot, all this out of a 10" Contender.

[kombi1976]

I've kept an eye out for a Martini Cadet in 25-20 as I believe the single shot, falling block style action would really end up a fun little round. The Cadet action is probably stronger than many give it credit for too and it was designed ofr the .310 Cadet round which has about the same chamber pressure or even less than a 25-20.
Problem is, I think it'd be unpowered for anything bigger than a fox or hare. It'd end up being another toy to muck with(not that there's anything worng with that.....unless your wife is a bit of a killjoy like mine) rather than a really flexible gun, at least for the sort of shooting I do.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Have shot quite a bit of factory from Savage Mod 23's. Accuracy is good,
trajectory is bad. Don't want to load to higher velocities as the Mod 23 is basically their .22 rifle chambered and bored to .25. In a newer, stronger action, using care, one might find both light loads and heavy loads to make the little round more versital.

[2520]

At one time there was a factory hi-vel load for 25-20 which used a 60 gr bullet.  As I recall these were not noted for fine accuracy.  The bullets (for reloading) are hard to find now and I have only a few left.  A friend of mine has a Winchester Mod. 43 in 25-20 and he experimented with some of these some years ago with mix results.  He obtained increased velosity but the accuracy was not good.  The best bullet expansion occured between 60 and 75 yds. and the velocity dropped off rapidly.  Probably not a good choice for coyote and there are so many others that are.  I have used 75 gr hollow points with standard loads and they are very accurate on targets in my old Stevens but the bullets do not expand at the low velosity and I would not use this load on game.  My rifle has a modern (Douglas) barrel so shooting jacketed bullets is not a problem but shooting hi vel loads in a Stevens 44 action is a problem.  That and the fact that with scope my rig weighs about 11 pounds restricts it to the target bench.  A good many Cadets were made in 25-20 and there is ample strength but there are also better cartridges for hunting that will work in the Cadet as well.  The 25-20 is an easy round to reload (I can get about 900 rounds out of a pound of powder) and a lot of fun to shoot.  How usefull it is for hunting is debateable which is why it is more or less obsolete.

[Flash]

I've considered getting a Contender barrel in 25/20 and using mild 256 Win. Mag. load data for a starting point. My Remington Model 25 is much too weak for this experiment but a Contender will handle it. The case capacity of the 25/20 should be a little bit greater than the 256 and produce less pressure.

[Lone Star]

I've considered getting a Contender barrel in 25/20 and using mild 256 Win. Mag. load data for a starting point....The case capacity of the 25/20 should be a little bit greater than the 256 and produce less pressure.

That is a TERRIBLE idea.  The .25-20 case capacity is considerably less than that of the .256 Winchester, so using .256 data will result in excessive pressures.  The .25-20 is based on the smaller diameter .32-20 case while the .256 is based on the larger diameter .357 Magnum case.  

There is plenty of safe, tested data for the .25-20; to go off making it up as you go is dangerous for experienced reloaders, let alone newer shooters.  Check out a Hornady, Lyman or Accurate manual for lots of tested .25-20 loads.  

Just for reference, in Hornady the mildest .256 load listed with H4227 is 1.8 grains over the maximum listed for the .25-20 - a 13% overload - same bullet.

[Flash]

That's odd, the difference between Ken Waters 25/20 loads with 4198 and Sierra's load for the 256 and both using an 87 grain spitzer is only one grain. This powder and 4227 are the ones that I intend to experiment with in a Contender carbine. Sure, there is plenty of 25/20 data for 100+ year old guns but I don't want that. I have a sound and strong platform from which to use my reloads in and it is akin to using 44 magnum loads in a 45 colt case, which I've done many times. You are right about the case capacity of the 256 being greater but as I said, I am using light loads. I won't tell you what I did with my 32/20 which has data that overlaps the 30 carbine loads. I'm not recomending anything to anyone or making up anything, I am using published data in a comparable case and do it often. I load my 32 longs to near 32 H&R performance also. To me, it all depends on how much you push the envelope and what gun you launch it from. I'm not professing to be another Ackley but I certainly experiment with my guns and will continue but thanks for your concern.

[Lone Star]

I'm not so concerned with your safety - I'm concerned about less-experienced reloaders who might follow your examples.  They are the ones who need to be watched over and guided, and if they mimick your example closely they may develop habits which can get them into trouble.

For the record, you have made quite a few basic mistakes in this single project which could spell trouble for less-experienced reloaders. For their benefit:
* First you assumed that the .25-20 has a greater case capacity than the .256 does.  
* Second, you assumed that the Remington cases that Waters used have the same strength and hardness as the Winchester cases Sierra used.  
* Third you assumed that the lots of powders used in the two tests made years apart were the same.
* Fourth you are surprised that the 256 starting load is "only" one grain over the max load Waters lists.
* Fifth, you assumed that the hard 87-grain Spitzer that Sierra used behaves the same as a soft 86-grain bullet (with a much longer shank) does in Waters tests.
* Sixth, you assumed that simply because you've used data from "hot" cartridges in older ones you won't get into trouble - you've "gotten away with it" before so it must be a safe practice.  
* Seventh, you brag about how far you have exceed published loads, minimizing the potential for risk.

I'm not taking you to task because of what you are doing - you are the best judge of your own safety - but the example it sets for others with less experience is....questionable.  Continue with your experiments - as I will after over thirty years of doing so - but please be a little more careful in how you present your ideas on unconventional techniques in an open forum read by new shooters and reloaders.  Thanks for considering their safety in the future.

[ FWIW I've done a lot of experimenting with my BF handgun chambered in .25-20 over the past twelve years, and with its tight custom chamber (which supports the soft case well) it makes a fine high performance cartridge.  But most of the shooting I do with it uses loads very close to published data - because it seems to shoot best there. ]

[Flash]

Again, I am not advising anyone to follow my lead nor will I list any load data. :wink:

[Blackhawk44]

For the curious, stay with 25-20 level loads.  Good loads are in recent Accurate, Hodgdon and Speer manuals and should suit the needs of JimB.  High end 256Win loads can be tough on a Contender frame.  Side by side tests in the '70's (before Hawkeye's became extinct and the 256 was still fresh) showed extraction problems in Contenders well before the Hawkeyes coughed.  Back to the 25-20, out of my 10" Contender barrel, velocity with WW factory loads stays within 5fps (rechecked several times) of the same loads out of my Marlin94CL with no apparent major differences in fired cases.  Boring and throating differences would seem the likely reason.  Very accurate barrel to boot.  Have here a 3 shot, sandbag, iron sight, 25yd group that will hide under a dime.

[fyrepowrx]

I have a questions for both Lonestar & Blackhawk, who have experminted some with this cartridge.

I was also curious abou the 25-20, i have a 10" TC barrel so chambered, and it was interesting enough for me to order a 20" carbine from the custom shop. i have been playing with some upper-end loading in this carbine as well, which i will not list here, as i too am concerned someone without considerable reloading experience might use them.

What bullets / powders have you found most likely to succeed? My TC 10" is not fond of the Hornady 75 grainers, at least with the several powders i have tried.

Although the cartridge intrigues me, i find it to be quite picky. More so than my several .17's, more so than the other small case .22's i have worked with.

Would also be interested in any low-velocity cast bullet loads you have tried.

Thanks!

[Blackhawk44]

Don't know why, but 25-20 can be very picky.  Many show dislikes for certain bullets.  Some even have a preference for either slow powders or fast (as a group).  Some will only perform within a certain velocity range, regardless of bullet or powder.  Many become much more democratic with moderate (factory) velocity cast bullets of 65-85 grains.  A good place to start with cast bullets (several suppliers offer 85gr) would be with about 4.5gr of Blue Dot.  The top end should be about 6gr.  If still picky, you may have to cast your own gas checks.  The Lyman Loverin 257463 RNGC is pretty much accepted by most barrels.   BOL

[willysjeep134]

Check this out. If I were looking for a rifle for close in small game and 150 yard shots on medium game I would probably lean towards this.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=534&type_id=117&cat=003C

Winchester just reintroduced the 25-35 WCF! The 25-35 is the .25 caliber equivalent of the 30-30. The standard load is a 117 grain Hornady bullet going around 2000 fps at the muzzle. This makes an OK light deer round, and would also work fine on coyotes at 150 yards. The other no longer offered factory load was like an 86 grain softpoint going quite a bit faster.

You can pretty much duplicate any 25-20 load in a 25-35 case. You can also hop up the light bullets for better distance performance. My dad has an old beat up 20s vintage M94 that can still hit a softball at 125 yards with open sights. With a modern tight action and a decent scope mounted over the bore you could probably do pretty well. The only problem is that you can only find 25-35 in lever actions as far as I know.

[Somerled]

willysjeep134,

Thanks for posting the link. I hadn't heard of the new Winchester 94s. I'd like two: the .25-35 and the .38-55. I like the weight, too. I was tempted to get one of those Marlin .38-55 Cowboys with the 24-inch barrel until I hefted one at the gunshop.

The T/C Custom Shop (Foxridge Outfitters) makes .25-35 rifle barrels for the Contender. They aren't that much more than the regular factory barrels.

[Blackhawk44]

The main problem you will have in making a varmint gun out of a 25-35 is the sights.  Once you get very far in bullet weight away from the 117gr standard bullet, you will find elevation so far off that the sights are useless.  Maybe on the Angle Eject, you can mount a scope in quick detachable rings for light (60-85gr) bullets and use the irons for deer (117gr) bullets. (?)  The second problem is getting any kind of accuracy from light bullets because they have to jump that rather long throat (for the 117gr).  Could be a frustrating project.

[Leftoverdj]

Blackhawk, my .25-35 Imp was built as a varmint gun and it does just fine with everything from 75 to 117 RNs. Since it's built on a Marlin 336 action with an unknown 1-14" barrel, it's only a two shooter with spitzers, but it will give MOA with the lighter bullets and 1.25 MOA with the 117 RNs. Takes a max load to stablize the 117 RNs, though.

[Blackhawk44]

Coool !  Great to find the exception that works.