Grave dissatisfaction with Lee taper crimp die

[Questor]

I have had failure to feed problems with my 45ACP loads when the chamber gets dirty. I replaced the Lee taper crimp die with a Dillon taper crimp die and the problem went away. Except for the autoprime tool, I will never buy another Lee product as long as I live. This is the last straw.

I notice that the Dillon taper crimp die crimps a significantly longer section of the case than the Lee, it does so more uniformly.  :evil:

[jakes10mm]

Try the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

[Questor]

That was it. I've used the gun for hundreds of rounds and shot in a match. All without a failure. The failure to feed problem was exasperating, and I varied everything I could think of until the only thing left was my dies.

This was quite a vexing problem.

[Haywire Haywood]

The Lee Taper Crimp die and the Factory Crimp die provide two distinctly different crimps.  For autoloaders, taper crimps, as you found out, are the only way to go.  I think that the problem might not have been the Lee die, but rather the type of crimp you chose first.  Personally, there are quite a few Lee products that I love to use.  On the other hand, there are some that I wouldn't take as gifts.  Glad you got it ironed out tho..

good luck,
Ian

[Questor]

Haywire:

It's like owning Rugers. Some people can, some can't. I can't. It's a cosmic thing. I think I ordered the die directly from Lee and picked the die style based on their descriptions. It seems like the taper crimp die is the one to use for putting a taper crimp on a cast bullet.  In any case, the Dillon "taper crimp die" fixes the problem that the Lee "taper crimp die" caused.  I'm not looking back. I've had nothing but bad luck with Lee products.  

It happens too often that I buy some piece of junk and then end up paying twice: once for the junk, and once for the thing I should have bought in the first place.

[Haywire Haywood]

It happens too often that I buy some piece of junk and then end up paying twice: once for the junk, and once for the thing I should have bought in the first place.

Hehe.... I get stuck in that too.  With me it's worse.. I buy something I'm fairly certain won't work on the off chance that it will.  How screwed up is that?  :shock:

Ian

[superhornet]

LEE products.  A relative discussion of many subjects merits a reflective and unbiased opinion on the subjects relevance.  I started reloading in 1949, Sept 18 th.   I want to say it was using an old "Ideal press, but at my age I am unsure of the real component.  Was casting bullets for the Trapdoor Springfield and 30-40 Krag.  So, I do not have the experience that most of you do.       I still shoot 800 rounds per month and reload for the .22Hornet, .243, 308, 270, 280, 30-06, 357, 44Mag, 9mm, 10mm, 38sp, 45-70, 7mmWSM, 300WSM, 264WM, 7mmREM mag and a few others. I do use an RCBS press.   I have loaded more than 150,000 rounds using  the old Lee Loader, Lee Dies, shell holders, taper crimp dies and FC die.   Have had no trouble.   USING THE Lee Taper Crimp Die for 9mm, I loaded 200 rounds for the GSSF Glock matchs which I used to shoot in until old age and shaky hands ended that adventure.    Never had a load fail--Won one Glock 17 shooting a match in Ft. Benning.   Of course over the many years I have a cornucopia  of Hornady, RCBS, Bair, Herters, CH, Lyman etc. dies.  The Lee Dies are as good as the best, and better than the rest..  The Lee Factory Crimp Die is the greatest innovation since sliced bread............IMHO of course.

[JCM]

Okay, okay....

I'm new to reloading.  Just picking up my first dies.....

10mm (auto)...I'm reloading on the Lee anniversary kit.  I'm just reading and learning right now.  I like the idea of the carbide dies.  From what I'm reading from you guys, some like the lee dies some don't.  Which is the best fit for reloading the 10mm with carbide dies?  Is there another set of dies that I should by rather than lee?  Please be specific on everything that I would need as I'm just starting.

If it makes a difference I'm reloading for a Glock 20.

You're welcome to throw in input on 30'06 and 7-30 Waters dies as well.....or anything you'd like to share.

Thanks for any help and input,

JCM

[Questor]

JCM:

Lee equipment is among the most controversial things discussed in reloading forums. As you can see from this thread, my level of disgust has gotten to the critical point where I will have no more of it.  On the other hand, many people have used it for their applications successfully.

In reloading, the best advice is to buy the best you can afford, and avoid cheap stuff. Quality has no regrets and equipment like that of Hornady, RCBS, Dillon, and Redding is built to last a lifetime.

Consider the effect of the cheap Lee taper crimp die on my shooting. I have had it for a few years, and had many failures in my ammunition. With one particular gun the failures became intolerable.  This has cost me points and confidence in competition. After spending $50 to send the gun back to the manufacturer, and the manufacturer shooting 350 rounds of expensive Federal match ammo to check the gun's reliability (and shipping the gun back at their expense), the problem persisted.   After concentrating on my own equipment to eliminate the reliability problem, I learned that a $7 Lee die was the cause. Replacing it with a die costing $20 solved the problem.

What should I have done in the first place? Bought a Dillon taper crimp die knowing that it's one of the best in the industry, or paid one third of that amount for a Lee die?  

Pun intended, Lee equipment is a crap shoot.

I also own a Lee casting furnace. Piece of crap. Failed within a few months.
I have owned 3 Lee autoprime tools. Good, until they break in your hands.
Lee bullet moulds. Work for a while, then fail.

I have bought ammo loaded with a Lee progressive press. Double charges in two rounds. Dangerous situation. The guy that loaded it was experienced and a one-time national champion shooter. Fortunately I had a strong gun.

In summary, if you shoot in high volume, particularly semi-autos, take a bit of friendly advice from me.

[Questor]

JCM:

Carbide dies are made for straight-walled cartridges like the 10mm, 9mm, and 45acp. This is the only kind of die you should consider using because cases do not need to be lubricated prior to sizing. The alternative is to individually lubricate each case for sizing, and then removing the excess lubricant when you are done sizing.  I'm surprised they even make the non-carbide sizing dies for these calibers any more. Only the sizing die is carbide, that's the only one that needs to be.  So if you have the other kind, you can buy the sizing die individually. Check www.midsouthshooterssupply.com They are a good vendor of reloading gear.  I know RCBS makes them for individual sale.

I have had no failures or problems of any kind with RCBS dies in several calibers.  They have excellent customer service and stand behind their products.  If you want to move up to best quality equipment you can't go wrong with the RCBS Master reloading kit with the Rock Chucker press.  That's what I started with and I'm glad I did.  If you're going to shoot a lot of 10mm and you want a progressive press to speed the process, Dillon has worked very well for me.

By all means, since you're new, post your questions here. I have gotten excellent advice here, and personally always attempt to give fair advice myself.  

Best regards, and good shooting.

[Catfish]

Over the years I`ve owned alot of Lee stuff and without exception every piece of it has let me down. Their dies are too short, thier primeing tool wears out to fast, ect. ect. ect.

[JCM]

Thanks for the feedback.  It is greatly appreciated.

The master kit with the Rockchucker press was what I was eyeing, but my wife got the Lee anniversary kit for me for CHRISTmas.  I'm just learning right now, so it will work.  As I learn a little more and get more insight I'll move up as needed.

I'll probably go with the RCBS dies for the 10mm.  I'm still a little uncertain about which set...roll crimp, taper crimp?  Expanding dies, sizer dies, etc....  Is the 3-die carbide set taper crimp what (...all....)that I would need?  I'm understanding that a 3 die set will include an expanding die, seater die (taper or roll crimp), and sizer die?

I understand that the carbide dies for the straight wall cartridges allow you to not use lubricate.  Does RCBS (or any other suggestions) make a die that allows you to load rifle bullets (30'06) without lubricant?  I'll have to full length size my first round of cases because I've been shooting 2 different guns.  However, after that run I can keep them seperate and hope to neck size for each.  I think Lee states thier collet dies don't need lubrication?  Do you have a recommendation on a rifle die set that would allow me to resize for full length and later neck only without lubrication?  

Again, thanks for the input and feel free to share any wisdom.

JCM

[Haywire Haywood]

there are quite a few Lee products that I love to use.  On the other hand, there are some that I wouldn't take as gifts.

I'll give some examples:

Lee Presses:
  I wouldn't have been caught dead with one of those cast aluminum pieces of *$&%&$, then, they came out with their "Classic Cast" model.  It's cast iron just like the competition and strong as a bull.  It's everything the Rockchucker is.  I love mine at half the cost of the RCBS model.  I have a Dillion 550B for a progressive and that is just the ticket if you shoot a lot of pistol.

Lee Dies:
    They are a tad short... but mine have never let me down.  I only have one set of RCBS dies and I got them in a trade.  I don't even reload that caliber..

Lee Autoprime:
     I've read over and over how they break so easy but I've had mine since 92 and never had a single problem out of it.  My only wish is that they used standard shell holders.

Lee Loaders:
     I have one in 30-06 and I just don't care for it.  After about a week or so of pounding ammunition together I just bought a set of regular dies.  I especially didn't like what it was doing to my case mouths.

Lee case trimmer:
     I started out with those, but they were a pain to use so have since bought a Lyman universal trimmer.  I like that much better.

Lee Safety Scale:
     Chuck it out the first open window you can get to.  I got an RCBS 505 scale in my beginner kit and since have gone to their 10-10.  Much better scales IMO.

whew... enough already.  

Good luck,
Ian

[leverfan]

Lee reloading tools give you exactly what you pay for.  I like their dies okay, I"ve only had problems with one resizing die from them.  My Lee 40 S&W die wouldn't size brass down far enough to hold a bullet, they'd just fall down into the case until the internal taper of the case stopped them.  That die was made around the same time that the 40 came out, so perhaps the Lee production line was still working out bugs on that one.  My Lee priming tool busted in my hands, and I replaced it with an RCBS hand primer.  It still works.  I've also replaced several other Lee tools as my budget has allowed over the years (started with the Anniversary Kit).  Lee helps folks get started in reloading and casting, but lots of us move on to other brands.

[Questor]

JCM:

1) 10mm dies: You buy a 3-die set that includes carbide sizing die, case mouth expander die, and a bullet seating die. The bullet seating die doubles as a crimp die in the case of RCBS at least.  Whether it's a taper crimp or roll crimp is determined by how you adjust the die. One die will do either crimp. However, some guys like to use a separate crimp die. With the exception of 45ACP, which I load on a progressive press, I do not use a separate crimp die. This is because using three dies instead of four speeds reloading time.  My first few attempts at adjusting the seating and crimping die took longer than I expected because I was learning to use it.  For 10mm you will use a taper crimp, not a roll crimp. Roll crimps are used with bullets that have a "cannelure", which is a groove built into the bullet specifically for the purpose of admitting the case mouth to be rolled into it.  When using a taper crimp you need to take care that you don't crimp too much or it will indent the bullet and perhaps lead to poor accuracy and higher pressures.  If the Anniversary kit did not come with a set, you will also need a Lee shell holder for 10mm (and all of the other different cartridges you will reload). The shell holder holds the brass shell in the press. Costs a buck or two each.

2) Politics:  I suggest you get the RCBS, Redding, or Hornady dies of your choice. They will work with your Lee press and can then be used on any other modern press you may add later. Few serious handloaders find one press to be sufficient. For example, you may want to set up your favorite press set up for 10mm because you load more of it. The use the other press for your rifle calibers.  You can add a new scale, a new powder measure, and a new press ala carte as part of your monthly spending money.  The most expensive part, the press, costs about $110 for a really good one.

3) Rifle dies: Bottleneck cases require lube, but in the volumes you'll likely load rifle ammo, it's really not an onerous task. The key is to get a good lube that's easy to apply, and easy to remove the excess of. Some like spray lubes the best. I use Imperial case wax.

4) Other stuff you need:  It sounds like the manual that came with the Anniversary kit is a bit too sketchy. The Speer #13 manual (which, by the way, comes with the RCBS master kit) is excellent in every regard and tells you all about the process and methods of reloading.  The Lyman manual is often recommended, but I do not recommend it because I've found that their published velocities vary too much from real world results using actual firearms instead of the test barrels that Lyman uses.  You will need a good, consistent, reliable powder scale. This is very important because your powder charge largely determines cartridge pressure, and cartridge pressure determines whether your gun blows up.  It sounds overly dramatic, but it's really a simple fact.  You will also need a good, reliable powder measure. Measuring by hand gets old quickly.

[jh45gun]

JCM:

Lee equipment is among the most controversial things discussed in reloading forums. As you can see from this thread, my level of disgust has gotten to the critical point where I will have no more of it.  On the other hand, many people have used it for their applications successfully.

In reloading, the best advice is to buy the best you can afford, and avoid cheap stuff. Quality has no regrets and equipment like that of Hornady, RCBS, Dillon, and Redding is built to last a lifetime.

Consider the effect of the cheap Lee taper crimp die on my shooting. I have had it for a few years, and had many failures in my ammunition. With one particular gun the failures became intolerable.  This has cost me points and confidence in competition. After spending $50 to send the gun back to the manufacturer, and the manufacturer shooting 350 rounds of expensive Federal match ammo to check the gun's reliability (and shipping the gun back at their expense), the problem persisted.   After concentrating on my own equipment to eliminate the reliability problem, I learned that a $7 Lee die was the cause. Replacing it with a die costing $20 solved the problem.

What should I have done in the first place? Bought a Dillon taper crimp die knowing that it's one of the best in the industry, or paid one third of that amount for a Lee die?  

Pun intended, Lee equipment is a crap shoot.

I also own a Lee casting furnace. Piece of crap. Failed within a few months.
I have owned 3 Lee autoprime tools. Good, until they break in your hands.
Lee bullet moulds. Work for a while, then fail.

I have bought ammo loaded with a Lee progressive press. Double charges in two rounds. Dangerous situation. The guy that loaded it was experienced and a one-time national champion shooter. Fortunately I had a strong gun.

In summary, if you shoot in high volume, particularly semi-autos, take a bit of friendly advice from me.

I have seen Lee furnaces that are older than dirt and still working!  I also bought a Hornady die set in 45/70 that was crap the decapping pin kept breaking. Bought a lee set and never had a problem since. I have read the Dillon catalogs and have read about their products haveing problems also but have great customer service well so does Lee. All these companies products can either fail or send out a bad one. For my part mostly all I use is Lee and have had great luck with it. TO each their own Lee stuff does work and work well as does most all the other products others sell. Reloading stuff is pretty basic stuff and does not have to be complicated to work or work well. Some of it does get out of wack ocasionally and most companies are willing to fix the problem. Seems awfull funny to me that DIllion users and Lee users are always at odds about the products. Manly because the owner of Dillion has a problem with the owner of Lee. So on it carries with the customers.

[jh45gun]

One thing about Lee Presses. I have two hand held ones that work great and due to my living in apt and not haveing room for  a bench set up they give me the tools to still be able to reload out of a box. I do not see why some need a ton sized  cast iron press to load a BRASS shell. Brass is soft and easy to resize and the rest of the loading process does not take any heavy pressure at all. I can full size my 45/70 brass and all the rifle brass 8mm, 308, 30/30 ect with no problems by using a hand press and yea it is aluminum and works great.

[JCM]

I really appreciate all of the input and information you guys are passing on.  I'm sure some knowledge I'll just have to get from experience, which is fine, but I'm still going to learn as much as I can from your experience.

It's pretty obvious that I'll always be adding a little something here and there to my supplies.  You guys have given me some pretty good direction on a roadmap there.  I'm pretty positive I'm going to have to get another scale.  The electronic ones seem really nice.  Maybe it's just me, and it's easier to use when you're wieghting powder, but the white tick marks are tough to see.  Again, maybe I'm doing it wrong....  Even if I'm doing it wrong, it does seem like a royal pain and very slow.

Suggestions on the most efficient way to measure/weigh powder?  Recommendations?

Again, thanks.

JCM

[Questor]

JCM:

The electronic scales, being high-precision electro-mechanical devices, have their bugaboos too. Keep them out of drafts, away from static electricity, and magnets.  I don't have one, but would like to have one.  

My best recommendation right now is to get a couple of good manuals and read. There's really no substitute for that step because you need the background information to keep things safe and enjoyable while giving you the results you want.

Start with a "ball" powder, like Winchester 231, or something similar. It meters very well.  Winchester lists several loads for 231 for 10mm.

Other than that, observe a methodical step-wise process. Resize all of your cases, then expand all of your cases, prime your cases, charge all of your cases with powder and do a visual inspection of each case after all have been charged (you put the charged cases into a plastic "loading block" that holds your cases vertical during this step, you should have one in your kit). Then finally seat the bullet and crimp the case.   Doing the visual inspection will allow you to spot any cases that have been double charged or insufficiently charged, or otherwise different from the rest. This is very important.

Reloading is a very safe activity, but you have to follow the rules, and the good manauals all contain the rules.

[dakotashooter2]

My take on Lee stuff. Pistol dies... OK   Rifle Dies... bad  
cast aluminium press... bad   Auto prime ... OK  
Case trim tool... good.  That is about all I have tried.
Thinking about trying the factory crimp die.

[jh45gun]

My take on Lee stuff. Pistol dies... OK   Rifle Dies... bad  
cast aluminium press... bad   Auto prime ... OK  
Case trim tool... good.  That is about all I have tried.
Thinking about trying the factory crimp die.

Why bad on the rifle dies? I have them in 45/70, 30/30/ 308, 8mm, and 762x54 and have not one problem with them! Got a 6.5x55 set on order. Factory Crimp dies work excellent and worth more than what Lee charges for them that is for sure. As far as the cast aluminum presses go I have never tried the bench ones but my hand presses work great! Even on the large rifle brass.

[brasskeeper]

I have loaded 10 mm auto for a Colt Delta for many years using Rcbs carbide taper crimp dies with no problems. I also have used Lee carbide taper crimps dies to load  9mm for a S&W 559 without problems.