Author Topic: Redhawk bbl. change  (Read 1063 times)

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Offline halfbreed

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Redhawk bbl. change
« on: February 18, 2005, 08:13:08 PM »
O.K. fellas, since I have gotten such good advice in the near past, How difficult is it to swap bbls on a redhawk. Looking at the Ruger site, the exploded view shows the bbl to be threaded. Just wondering if they could be switched out using a witness mark on the bbl and the topstrap for alignment and using a feeler gauge checking cylinder gap?
 Or is this stretching a bit? thinking a custom 4" bbl for cc, and a 7.5" possibly for hunting?
Thanks Halfbreed

Offline RollTide

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2005, 02:36:41 AM »
Halfbreed,
Revolver barrels are "crush fit".  That is, they are designed to reguire a great amount of torque (i.e. special tools and skill) to seat them to the proper depth in the frame.  This is a must in the conventional revolver so that the barrels do not "shoot loose" over time.  The disadvantage to the process is that you cannot interchange barrels like you desire to do (although a gunsmith with the proper tools can of course change barrels), and the "crush fit" generally decreases bore diameter by a couple thousands of an inch in the area where the barrel is inside the frame.  This decreases accuracy to some extent when it occurs because when a bullet is fired it is essentially swaged to a slightly smaller diameter when it passes through the frame area and then travels the rest of the barrel length "slightly" undersized.  This can be taken care of with barrel lapping and so forth, but usually only custom or semi-custom makers take the time to do it.  

Enter Dan Wesson.  He designed a revolver with no need for a "crush fit" into the frame.  Therefore he solved the accuracy loss without custom work and made the barrels interchangable at the same time.  S&W recently incorporated the same "Dan Wesson" type of barrel/frame  fit in their X frame revolvers and it is reported that they intend to incorporate this "new to them" barrel design in some of their other revolvers.

So the answer to your dilemma is to buy a Dan Wesson.  Then you can get 4", 6", 8" or 10" barrels for the same gun and interchange to your heart's content.  DW's are arguably as strong as the Redhawk, and in most cases more accurate, not that I have anything against Rugers or Redhawks.  Rugers are very fine guns in their own right.  The Dan Wesson also has fewer moving parts and the parts in it are very robust, so that they can stand up to a steady diet of the heaviest loads.  Just ask any IHMSA shooters.

Hope that helps,
Roll Tide

Offline KN

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2005, 11:48:42 AM »
I agree with most of what RollTide said. With the exception of the decreased bore diameter. You would strip the threads off long before that ever happened. I have removed and replaced a couple of barrels and it is not a fun job. If you are not very careful and have the right tools you WILL
screw up the finish on your barrel. If you are not 100% sure of what you are doing then let a good gunsmith do it. You'll be better off in the long run.  KN

Offline RollTide

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2005, 01:30:30 AM »
Good advice KN.  It is always good to learn from the sometimes hard-earned wisdom of those with experience like you have.  I have never attempted to change a barrel in a revolver (except my Dan Wessons of course)  because I can mess up a ball bearing, and the fine finish on a gun I could mess up in a heartbeat.

As for the diameter reduction at the beginning of a revolver barrel, there is another very well versed person that has some interesting things to say about that.  The owner of Beartooth Bullets, Marshall Stanton, has the following posted in his FAQ section.   He is one of the most knowledgable persons I have ever read on the subject with a LOT more hands on experience than I have in this area.

Quote from Beartooth Bullets FAQ
*********************************************************
> Firelapping... What is it and what will it do for my gun? :: By on 2001-01-29
Print This FAQ | Share This FAQ

    Fire lapping very basically involves shooting a soft, BHN 11, oversize bullet impregnated with a high grade lapping compound through the bore of your firearm at airgun velocities. These abrasive bullets act like self conforming lapping plugs which incrementally remove constrictions in the barrel, uniform it dimensionally and smooth out the tooling and chatter marks in the rifling. Complete fire lapping step by step instructions may be found in the fire lapping chapter in the Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide.

    In virtually all firearms it will either greatly reduce or totally eliminate both barrel leading and jacket fouling by smoothing out the tooling marks left in the barrel by the equipment used in barrel manufacture and by easing the sharp corners and edges inside the bore which collect fouling.

    In most guns, there will be at least a modest increase in accuracy potential, to often times dramatic improvement in accuracy from increasing the uniformity of the bore dimensionally, and eliminating the constrictions which are common under dovetails in barrels, and barrel bands.

    Especially in revolvers where the threaded barrel shank is screwed into the frame of the revolver, dramatic improvements in performance may be achieved. This is particularly true where cast bullets are used in the revolver, because the constriction under the threaded barrel shank (which can be from .002"-. 004" depending on make and caliber), acts like an undersize, bullet sizing die, thus sizing the bullet down under barrel groove dimension, creating an improper bullet to barrel fit. Not only does this condition deteriorate accuracy; it also promotes barrel leading. Fire lapping, properly done eliminates this condition.
************************************************************


Food for thought.

Roll Tide
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Offline KN

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2005, 11:33:01 AM »
Well, I won't say its impossible, but I would have to see that happen myself before I will believe it. I have been a Tool and die maker for almost 25 years and I have never encountered a situation like that. As for Beartooth Bullets claims, I take every claim made by a company trying to sell me some thing with a little scepticism. That doesn't mean I don't think fire lapping works, just the opposite. I have had very good luck with fire lapping. But if there is a tight spot in your bore I don't believe it got there from tightening the barrel.   KN

Offline leverfan

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2005, 03:44:12 PM »
Quote from: KN
I agree with most of what RollTide said. With the exception of the decreased bore diameter. You would strip the threads off long before that ever happened.


I've slugged plenty of barrels, and I can easily feel the bore constriction in the barrel where it threads into the frame on most revolvers.  The soft slug suddenly becomes harder to push through the bore when you reach that point.  This constriction is of no great importance to most shooters, particularly if you shoot jacketed bullets.  However, it is there, and you can easily verify this for yourself by slugging a few revolver barrels that are screwed into their frames.  The tight spot is always in the same place, and it can be removed by chasing the threads and cleaning them up just a little with the barrel out of the frame.  Or, if you're worried about the barrel shooting loose, or you don't want to mess with removing it, you can lap the constriction out.
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Offline RollTide

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2005, 06:18:32 AM »
KN,
You certainly sound more knowledgeable than myself as far as machining and metal work.  I assumed that the crush fit caused the restriction present in most revolver barrels, but it may indeed be caused by something else in the manufacturing process.  The main thing is that you gave Halfbreed a very good answer to his original question about changing barrels.  I did not mean to hijack the post by talking about barrel restrictions and the like.

Roll Tide

Offline KN

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2005, 11:43:53 AM »
No offense taken. I hope I didn't come off that way either. I certainly wasn't trying too. That was just the first time I ever heard that. After reading leverfans post I'm going to look into it a little deeper. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong about some thing. I've got about a dozen different revolvers in the safe so I'll try and check them out over the weekend.  KN

Offline KN

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2005, 11:45:03 AM »
Update..
I spent saturday afternoon checking bore diameters on eight different pistols. I made special nylon plug gages to just slip fit the bore diameters on each gun. I only found one pistol that showed any restriction at the threaded portion of the bore. It was the oldest pistol I own, a speed six. It turned out to be lead build up at the end of the forcing cone. Once the lead came out there was no restriction at all. All eight pistols were slick as a whistle all the way through. So I'll have to stick with my original assertion that you would strip the threads long before causing any kind of bulge in the barrel diameter. Of course if you had a small barrel diameter with a large bore I suppose this could happen. But I think that would be a dangerous combo to start with. Not trying to start an argument or any thing, Just stating what I found.   KN

Offline leverfan

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2005, 06:08:04 PM »
Slugging with a soft lead slug that is slightly larger than bore diameter is much more sensitive.  The constriction is only a couple of thousandths, and I'm not surprised that a bore diameter nylon plug was less sensitive to it than oversized lead.  No flames, just suggesting that the case remains open for further investigation.......
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Offline RollTide

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2005, 12:16:47 AM »
KN,
Thanks for the update. That was a lot of work and I appreciate you not only doing it, but also sharing the results.  It seems nylon might not be the best for this purpose.  Nylon is very "slick" so you may not "feel" a restriction so small, and it is very resilient, so you may not get an accurate measure of the bore diameter from the plug once it has passed the restriction.  To test for bore restrictions so small, you need to use a material that will take the size of the smallest diameter in the bore and not "spring back" to original size once it is past the restriction.  That is why it is recommended to use soft lead (usually something like oval fishing weights that are just a little larger than bore diameter to start.)  Once the soft lead is passed through the barrel, you can then mic the impressions in the lead to see what the actual dimensions of the smallest part of the barrel is.

I would "slug" some of my own guns, but all my revolvers are Dan Wessons except an old Webley Mk VI (which does not have a threaded barrel)  and an old Colt Police Positive which has been shortened to 1.9" barrel length (there is not a lot of barrel that is NOT threaded in the frame.)

Thanks again for your efforts and the update.

Roll Tide

Leverfan,
Thanks for your insight as well.  That is why I like this forum.  You get so much information from so many experienced and knowledgeable people.

Offline KN

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Redhawk bbl. change
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2005, 11:33:30 AM »
When machining these plugs, an oversized plug of .002" would not even begin to go into the bore by hand. Yes nylon is very slick but it is also very dense. It does not compress well at all. A variation of .0005" is very noticable in a bore diameter. If you don't believe it give it a try.   KN