Author Topic: Anyway to speed up lock time on an H&R? (Read 1460 times)

myarmor · « **on:** March 06, 2005, 06:57:33 AM »

I guess I will try here. I am new to this forum but I have been watching for a while and I think you guys can answer my questions.
I recently bought an H&R Ultra 223, and i love it. I tightened everything up and mounted a 6-24x44 Tasco target scope with fine cross hairs and a 1/8 dot on it, and I also really like this scope. Great scope for the money. My average groups are usually anywhere from 3/4 to 1/2 inch, with my proudest yet being 1/8.
This is a very capable gun

surprised me. Even though my groups are so close they aren't in the bulls eye where they should be. I believe it to be the slow lock time of the hammer fall that is messing me up. My brother has the same rifle and it does the same to him as well.
My question is, is there any way to speed up the lock time/hammer fall?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:06:02 AM »

Welcome aboard!

If you are using the hammer spur extension, remove it, that will help. Next would be a stronger hammer spring, Brownell's sells em, don't know if they are stronger, but a new one might be in order. Some have talked about cross drilling the hammer, but I haven't seen it done yet. A lighter hammer may also affect the transfer bar and cause failures to fire. Keep in mind that any changes will void the warranty. You also need to consider that the transfer bar system is in play here and trigger follow through is important, the trigger must be pulled all the way to the rear when it breaks and not released at the break. If POI is consistent, I think most H&R shooters would be real happy with 1/2 to 3/4 moa shooting, but it never hurts to try something new to improve what you have. Good luck and be sure to report on the results.

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:10:05 AM »

Here are some accurizing tips from Fred M that may help you....be aware, lots of pop-ups. :eek:

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/tweakultra.html

myarmor · « **Reply #3 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:12:26 AM »

Thanks. that helps me out a lot :grin:
My gun is brand new, with only 100 rounds through it so far. Mounts, scope, and everything seem to be in order. Even though my groups are good, it ain't going to help me come varmint season if I cant get them where I want them though.
Perhaps I just need to shoot it more and become more familiar with a hammer fall rifle. This it the first hammer fall I have ever owned with the excaption of my TC black powder.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:14:08 AM »

I edited my last post in case ya missed it.... :wink:

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 06, 2005, 07:54:30 AM »

Quote from: myarmor

Thanks. that helps me out a lot :grin:
My gun is brand new, with only 100 rounds through it so far. Mounts, scope, and everything seem to be in order. Even though my groups are good, it ain't going to help me come varmint season if I cant get them where I want them though.
Perhaps I just need to shoot it more and become more familiar with a hammer fall rifle. This it the first hammer fall I have ever owned with the excaption of my TC black powder.

Welcome aboard

These little rifles do take a bit getting used to the trigger...if it has a light enough trigger pull for you...you will get used to following thru with it...it's not a Timmeny trigger but they can be made to break very cleanly and crisp for a Hammer gun.

You gotten as small as 1/8" groups...so accuracy shouldn't be a factor here...since your mainly getting 1/2"-3/4" groups with it ...and you say you can't get it it to shoot where you want it?...Why is that??? How do you have it sited in...or am I mis-reading what your saying... Can you not adjust your point of aim to the desired height...

1/2" groups-3/4" groups will work fine for any type varmint hunting...and if you are trying to free recoil the rifle in the bags with minimal trigger pull...your shift in P.O.A. is the result of that...you will have to pull thru with the trigger...these are after all exposed hammer hunting rifles...not bench rest rifles...and given their nature will not react to the same shooting style...

Consistant 1/2"-3/4" groups with a Handi is exceptional...in any caliber.. and...to do much better...you'll have to spend a-lot more for a different rifle...

Practice your trigger pull,,,,and pulling the rifle into shoulder...while bench shooting.. ..and then adjust your P.O.A. to match it...it's far easier to do this from a more upright position on the bench with these rifles...so try adjusting your rest higher and sitting up more...and when you move up in caliber and recoil this type shooting form will help you imencely with these rifles..

Mac

myarmor · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:05:04 AM »

Hi Mac
Well it is sighted in. It's just me that's throwing off my groups, usually to the left. Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to get my groups tighter, only for them to all come togather. With my best shooting day I got 1/8 dead center of my bulls eye. I think it's also a mind game on my part. 3 shots will be in a 1/2 or 3/4 group to the left of the bulls eye, then after I let it cool a few min later, my shots will be still 1/2 or 3/4 a little high or some where else. The groups are there, but like I said not where I want them, in the daed center. I honestly don't believe it's my scope, because like I said before my brothers groups will do the same thing(he has a Simmons 44 MAG), and he isn't used to a hammer fall either.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:15:53 AM »

, Welcome aboard my armor, it sounds like you would be a great one to sit around a campfire with and swap experiences.
WOW!!! A new Handi, 100 or so rounds through it and it already shoots 3/4" to 1/2" groups regularly with an occasional 1/8" group!!! Thats some great shooting.
As far as point of impact goes, don't touch the gun, just adjust the scope and move the point of impact into the bull or where you might want it. You and the gun seem to shoot great already, I would not suggest fiddleing with the gun until you shoot another couple of hundred rounds at least. It sounds like you have a real shooter there, congratulations....<><.... :grin:

myarmor · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:29:12 AM »

Thanks MSP. Yeah I didn't tell ya, that my bench is set up at about 120 yards. Ever sence I got that tight group, I didn't touch my scope. The first box of ammo I used trying to sight in my Ultra, was Remington Core Lok's in 55 gr. These didn't do too bad. the second box of ammo, was Winchester 55gr white box. Trying to put these on paper was a nightmare, and ever since then I will only buy these to plink with. Unsurprisingly, my best groups are with the Winchester 45gr White Box. These are the ones that gave me that proud 1/8 and will always give me 1/2 to 3/4. These are the ones I finally used to get sighted in with. Like I said I think it's just me not the scope, my posture and form while shooting, stock placement on my shoulder, trigger pull, are all effecting me. And with the sand bags under the slinder reciever, it takes a lot of concentration.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:43:57 AM »

myarmor, stay around a bit and you will hear a lot about these fine little guns. The ammo you have chosen, the 45 Grain Winchester HP ValuePack goes for about $13-$14 at Wal Mart and has become sort of the "gold standard" for these guns that all other ammo is judged by. Some Handi's may shoot other ammo better but most seem to prefer the Winchester 45's.
Wow!, 1/8" at 120 yards is even better than 100!!! That's just about a 1/4" at 250 and just an 1" at 480 yards or a hair over at 500 yards!!! I sure hope you can go the the first annual H&R/NEF Handirifle and Graybeards Prarie Dog shootout in 3 months, and bring that gun!!!....<><..... :grin:

myarmor · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:52:02 AM »

:shock: wow I didn't think about it like that. Man this little rifle is awesome :grin:
I really do love it and can't wait for warmer weather so I can get out and shoot.
O, and about the 45g White Box ammo, it was on this forum that I learned about them a while back. I really should have signed up here sooner so I could be talking with you guys instead of just reading :oops:

Coastwatcher · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2005, 09:03:18 AM »

Welcome aboard.

Quote from: myarmor

:shock: I really should have signed up here sooner so I could be talking with you guys instead of just reading :oops:

Not a bad way to start out. I always learn more when I'm listening than I do when I'm talking!!! :lol:

myarmor · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2005, 09:07:10 AM »

Thanks coastwatcher, and no doubt right. Listen and learn carries weight.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:21:54 PM »

Quote from: myarmor

Hi Mac
Well it is sighted in. It's just me that's throwing off my groups, usually to the left. Please don't get me wrong, I am not trying to get my groups tighter, only for them to all come togather. With my best shooting day I got 1/8 dead center of my bulls eye. I think it's also a mind game on my part. 3 shots will be in a 1/2 or 3/4 group to the left of the bulls eye, then after I let it cool a few min later, my shots will be still 1/2 or 3/4 a little high or some where else. The groups are there, but like I said not where I want them, in the daed center. I honestly don't believe it's my scope, because like I said before my brothers groups will do the same thing(he has a Simmons 44 MAG), and he isn't used to a hammer fall either.

I have to ask...have you floated the barrel yet? It almost sounds like you need to try the o-ring trick if your groups are doing that after the barrel heats up...I think I would try that before fooling around with the scope...tell me...does your groups go consistantly to the left when you start off with a cold barrel???and then start to string upwards somewhat???

Mac

myarmor · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2005, 05:16:45 AM »

Actually Mac yes they do. I haven't done the partial float, but I have considered it. Any more info would be greatly appreciated....

Nightrain52 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:03:48 AM »

With a Handi it is very hard to get the rifle to rest in the bags for each shot because it has to be broke open to extract and reload each shell. If you are getting consistent groups you need to adjust the scope itself. If it is walking the groups from one area to a different area you could be canting the scope, it doesn't take much to through a shot off at 100yds. This could also be parallax in the scope because you are not getting your cheek on the scope in the same place for each shot. Trying to find that magical one hole group will drive a guy nuts.

myarmor · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2005, 06:18:44 AM »

Well put Nighttrain. Walking groups is exactly what I am talking about. And you have a good point about the paralax on the scope with my check not being in the same place.
I believe I will put higher rings on it for 1) if you look at it you would sware the hammer is hitting it, though it isn't. My guess is about a 64th from touching. Too close if you ask me. And 2) I have a hard time crouching down to low on my gun to look through.
Any suggestions on some higher rings?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2005, 07:03:41 AM »

I'm partial to the Burris Signature Zee rings, high rings are .420" tall from the bottom of the scope tube to the top of the base. They require no lapping and they won't cause ring marks on your scopes that devalue them. I've not had a scope mounted yet that wouldn't mount with them, some I have been able to get by with the mediums which are .270" tall. Clearance at the power ring is almost always the deciding factor. Midway has the rings on sale at this time, Midsouth and The Optic Zone have great regular prices on them.

The .280 Handi in the pic below has a 50mm scope mounted on it in medium sig zees. It needs the hammer extension to hunt with it, but there's clearance to use it just the way it is.

www.midwayusa.com

www.theopticzone.com

www.midsouthshooterssupply.com

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2005, 08:17:30 AM »

Quote from: myarmor

Actually Mac yes they do. I haven't done the partial float, but I have considered it. Any more info would be greatly appreciated....

The o-ring should be 9/16" OD X 3/8" ID X3/32" thick...and per Quickdtoo...you can get this size at any True Value Hardware store...other than that...you will have to open the barrel channel slightly to keep it from touching the barrel...just enough to slide a buisness card all the way back to the barrel stud....Then if you want for a permenent fix...you can pick up a Brownells Acraglass kit from Brownells and bed the recoil lug and the first inch of barrel ahead of the stud and same for behind it...some say the forend spacer does nothing but align the barrel to the receiver...but .....it will also keep the barrel from having side to side movement as well...so be carefull with sanding these too much...

Mac

myarmor · « **Reply #19 on:** March 08, 2005, 03:09:54 PM »

Thanks Mac

I appreciate all you guys info. All this helps me out immensely.
However getting back to my original topic, has anyone tried one of these stronger springs that quickdtoo talked about the ones Brownells sells???

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2005, 03:29:48 PM »

My statement about the Brownell's spring wasn't too clear, what I meant was a new spring may be stronger than the original, for the $2.50 they cost it may be worth a try. Another option would be to try to find another spring of the same design that is made of heavier wire as Fred did with the latch spring. I know that True Value and Ace both carry a good assortment of springs, perhaps one with the right coil size could be modified to work. Just keep in mind the transfer bar can be broken, it's happened recently here, to V8R I think.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=7128&title=HAMMER+SPRING#specs

Coastwatcher · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2005, 04:04:59 PM »

The hammer spring in a Handi is a torsion spring so a generic coil spring will not work. If you download the Perklo Trigger modification instructions there is a picture of it on page 9. ( Item H )

The other two springs, trigger and barrel catch are coil compression springs and can be replaced with commonly available types.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2005, 04:18:52 PM »

Quote from: Coastwatcher

The hammer spring in a Handi is a torsion spring so a generic coil spring will not work. If you download the Perklo Trigger modification instructions there is a picture of it on page 9. ( Item H )

The other two springs, trigger and barrel catch are coil compression springs and can be replaced with commonly available types.

I've done several trigger jobs on H&R rifles, Ace and True Value carry that same type spring, whatever you choose to call it. True it's not a compression spring, but it does have a coil in it. If you go to the Numrich link below, you can view the spring, part #21. Theirs is $2, don't know what they charge for shipping, but I know they are real slow shipping. Brownell's ships the same day if you order in the AM. Numrich also only list the SB1 or Pardner, but I'd bet they are the same as the SB2 spring.

http://e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp?chrMasterModel=2190zPARDNER