Author Topic: load performance/anybody ever chronographed loads? (Read 1006 times)

rvtrav · « **on:** March 13, 2005, 06:56:14 PM »

Hello to all,
I usually like to read and not post but....

If anyone has ever done any load development and chronographing I'd really rather not reinvent the wheel.

I am considering taking my steel framed '60 on an exotic sheep hunt.
Currently I am using .451 round balls of 140 gr and 26 gr of fffg, I haven't found much on what this load can do (velocity wise) or if useing ffffg is going to enhance velocity much, or if it is even a safe idea.

Anyone have any experience and information to share?
any input is welcomed, Thanks rvtrav

Mark whiz · « **Reply #1 on:** March 13, 2005, 08:43:54 PM »

rvtrav.................

I've done a little chrony work with my 1858 Replica.
Here's what I've got:

.454 round ball
30gr Pyro P pellet 606fps 114 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle
27gr 3fg 777 578fps 104 ft lbs

180gr Buffalo Conical
27gr 3fg 777 503fps 101 ft lbs at the muzzle

I also tried to Chrony these using Goex 3fg, but I'm not sure my results were reliable. I would get readings from 500 to 1200fps on a single cylinder, SO I'm not relying on those numbers. I think maybe the unit was reading some of the extra smoke & sparks thrown out with the REAL stuff.

For the record, my son killed a 125lb boar a couple years ago with this gun using 30gr of 3fg Goex and the 180gr conical. At a range of about 10yds, one shot traveled thru the shoulder, down thru the chest cavity, passed out of the chest at a downward angle and then went thru the opposite lower front leg and then into the ground somewhere. Porky went right down and was silent in less than 10 seconds. I was impressed at the performance.

But unless you're anticipating a short range shot like he had............. you might have to put several rounds into Fluffy to keep him down.

Just consider what kind of shot you expect and use the most humane way to put down your game.

rvtrav · « **Reply #2 on:** March 14, 2005, 03:59:02 AM »

Mark,
Thanks much for the info, thats exactly what I was hoping to find out.

What you describe is about what I excpected. as the paper figures cut it-not too much to bragg about, but in the field, plenty of penetration to get the job done.

If your son had success with a tough skinned pig, I think that a snot-nosed sheep will be easy enough. I am planning on keeping the range close. I can shoot very well with the sights at 25yds and can keep within a kill zone at 50, beyond that it starts to get iffy, and I do want to be humane.
A guy just has to live within his limitations.
Thanks again for the 411, you've saved me the cost of a chronograph and a dozen trips to the range.

Mark whiz · « **Reply #3 on:** March 14, 2005, 07:52:20 AM »

No problem rvtrav - glad to help.

If you think that the cap & ball will get the job done - you ought to see the Corsican Ram sitting on my wall now. Took him with the muzzleloading rifle at 63yds using a 400gr sabot and 125gr of Clean Shot powder. The impact took him right off his feet :eek: and left an exit hole the length of my thumb.

Taxidermist had a lot of fun trying to stitch that up. :grin: Purdy animal though. :-)

rvtrav · « **Reply #4 on:** March 14, 2005, 05:47:27 PM »

Mark,
Sounds like you used the .505 gibbs of the muzzleloading genre on that corsican!
I'm hoping to find a good ram of the same species.

Mark whiz · « **Reply #5 on:** March 15, 2005, 04:51:31 PM »

Corsican's are a pretty species - make really nice mounts.

Here's a pic of mine:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/66414501/296795460kteTnX

That ought to whet your appetite. :wink:

rvtrav · « **Reply #6 on:** March 15, 2005, 06:04:39 PM »

Mark,
Nice Ram, consider my appetite whetted!!

what state Did you get him? did you go local, or have to travel?

jeager106 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 15, 2005, 11:13:40 PM »

The .44 with 26 grains is pretty anemic load.
From memory since I don't have my data with me:
Rem. '58 Army, .454 ball:
30 grains 3fg Elephant around 750 fps.
30 grains 3fg Swiss was over 1000 f.p.s.
Same load of T-7 was over 1000 f.p.s.
Best accuracy by far to Elephant 3fg, 30 grains and .454 ball.
2" at 25 yards. Still it's only a small game load.
I've taken a squirrel and racoon with mine, no evidence of bullet epansion, but of course the ball went thru and thru.
Same with shooting into water jugs. Recovered balls were pretty much very round except where they contacted the rifling.
These are not big game revolvers.
If I absolutely HAD to shoot at a deer sized animal it would be at 20 yards or under, then I'd have a tracking job I'm sure.

flamenblaster · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2005, 03:03:45 AM »

Im wondering if bullet sealing could make a fairly large difference in velocity...initially i shot with 30 gr. pyro..ball on powder with smear of grease on top..since shot same powder same load but seated part of a cotton ball on top..compressed it then put dab of grease and ball then compressed again..from my very subjective obvservation (no chrony) the ball seamed to be hitting quite a bit harder...much more energy it seems on various water filled plastic bottles and point of aim is lower to hit same spot..my cylinder bores are probably out of round methinks and better sealing makes it more efficient?..i double checked and repeated by loading both ways and it seems to be consistent

Cuts Crooked · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2005, 03:42:00 AM »

Little secret about Chronies and BP, Place a large piece of cardboard in front of the screens and shoot through it. This will alleviate those "false" readings caused by powder debries, smoke, etc.

Regarding C&B revolvers and hunting: I took a deer a nember of years ago with a head shot from about five paces. It went down like it was pole axed, but the ball did not exit the skull. That's pretty poor performance. I would advise to avoid any shot that would have to penetrate bone.

Click here: http://www.cartogra.com/servlet/com.hp.HPGuestLogin?username=cutscrooked&password=86504544 and then click on the thumbnail. You can just see the entrance b'tween his ear and eye...no exit wound! :shock:

rvtrav · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2005, 04:12:23 AM »

Nice buck cuts crooked,

Thanks guys for the comments,
I neglected to mention that I used a wonderwad with my load, and I do get a shaving of lead when seating the ball.

I plan on keeping my shots close, the outfitter said that they have stands near feeders and trails, and a large amount of their hunting is with bows. I think really a long shot would be 25 yards, also I'm gonna wait for a good shot.

If worse comes to worse, I will be taking along a rifle (still undecided as which one that will be)

Do any of you consider conicals a real advantage over round balls? I have by far and away the best accuracy with balls, and a much easier time loading them. It might be the type that I have but when I load them they always load in scewampis and shave off unevenly.

is there a type that load easier, or have a beveled base to make starting them consistent?

mec · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2005, 04:26:34 AM »

results can vary from one gun to the next.

http://usera.imagecave.com/mec/1858loads.jpg

Mark whiz · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2005, 08:50:08 AM »

rvtrav..........

I took him on a hunting ranch in eastern Indiana. Had to track and chase him on foot for about 3 hours before I could get a shot at all on him - seems he knew JUST how to stay away from a clear shot.

I use lubed wads also with my loads. I'm making my own these days - a fella has to have a hobby :wink: . The conicals are gonna be messier to load because they are pre-lubed and you end up scraping both lube & lead from them when loading - not much you can do about that unless you can get your hands on some unlubed bullets.

I too see a little better accuracy (groups) with balls - but the conicals shoot closer to my point of aim than balls do - at least out to 15yds anyway.

flamenblaster.......
I do think that how you seat the bullet has a big effect of the velocity. 3f powders are very fine and can be compressed considerably. Developing a "feel" for seating the ball will affect groups as much or more as learning how to use your powder measure consistently.

jeager106 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:46:54 PM »

If you must use that cap'n ball .44 on game larger than groundhogs then use more fuel.
Much as I hate faux powders T-7 has a lot of gee-whiz and does ignite well in my three .44's.
At 25 yards accuracy was not as good with the Swiss and T-7 as it was with Elephant.
Still it was plenty good 'nuff to hit a deer in the kill zone easily at 25 yards.
The BEST group I ever got with one of my '58's was an even 1" at 25 for 6 shots, and that with 3fg Elephant.
Now in the '58 Remington by Pietta it is possible to cram 35 grains of T-7 under a .454 ball without a over powder wad.
I use the .454 ball because I get a better seal (I think) at least it does shave a mite more lead upon seating.
I almot always yse an over powder wad.
I get 1/8" thick .45 card discs from Circle Fly for I forget how much $$ but they are super cheap by the thousand.
I always top off the ball with lube and don't skimp. Bore Butter, Crisco, whatever works in the climate you are hunitng.
I still think you are under gunned but wish you the best of luck.
Are you paying for this hunt?
On the subject of chrono and false reads. I move the screens downrange and elimnate the false reads 99% of the time.
When I do get false ones it's usually with the revolver and the screens read the wad slowing down and get velocities around 200 f.p.s.
I'd try the T-7 or better yet Swiss 3fg for the 1000 f.p.s. mark.
At least then your are out of the realm of the .22 rimfire for authority.

rvtrav · « **Reply #14 on:** March 16, 2005, 03:14:19 PM »

Thanks again guys,
Mec, thanks for the pic with the listings..

Jeager, I'm currently using goex fffg, but I've got time to find some swiss, and do some practice with that. also that T-7 shouldn't be to hard to come by.

Yes, I am payn' for the hunt, but my hunting compadres and myself haven't finalized the time yet. The outfit is in Texas, my pardner has been the main instigator behind the deal and knows where the place is exactly, somehwere by San Antonio.
Rumor has it that there is a place alot closer to my home (Utah) by Mesqutie nevada as well, where there are corsicans.
So far It's just been fun 'practicing,' giving the ol' cap an ball a good shaking down, and day dreaming.

jeager106 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2005, 11:15:24 AM »

rvtrav:
Your cap'n ball revolver. It has the notch in the hammer for a rear sight?
Curious as to what kind of accuracy you get at what distance and have you benched the thing.
Mine shoots so high it was sighted for at least a million yards. :-D
Accuracy is only fair at best with this particular one, about 3 to 4" at 25 yards and I would not consider it as anything but a tin can roller IF I could hit a tin can with it. :lol:

jeager106 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2005, 02:24:22 PM »

rvtrav:
I reviewed my notes from a year or so ago when I chron'd loads from my Pietta s.s. Rem. '58 with adj. sights.
Seems i managed to get 35 grains of T-7 and Swiss 3fg in those cylinders and broke 1100 f.p.s.
The percussion caps musta got zapped into a mist as they were no where to be found and the recoil was substantial.
Too bad as my notes revealed the ave. groups were 6" at 25 yards.
Not good 'nuff.
Interesting experiment though.

rvtrav · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2005, 05:56:43 PM »

jeager,
My gun is the open top colt (rep) 1860, with the notched hammer as the rear sight. From a bench (warning, cap and ball revolvers like to set sand bags on fire!) I can consistently get 3" groups at 25 yds, and 6-8" groups at 50 yds.
My buddy has a rem '58 .44 and can add a little more powder in the cylinders than I can. I like to use wads, and that constrains capacity somewhat, maybe 30grs at best. But I'd rather go for accuracy than all out power, however I'd like every bit practical for this operation.
Mine does shoot somewhat high, about 7" or so but it's simple to compensate for with kentucky windage.
I'm thinking that I should be able to get a dead rest shot from a blind, or at least be able to rest on or against something for the shot, and that will aid considerably.
I've wondered if I would get any enhancement by using ffffg powder, this weekend I'm planning on a shooting session, and starting conservatively and working up, but I don't have a chronograph immediatley available to check my progress.
I figured that I would get my loads worked out in the gun, and then check them with a chronograph when I could get one.

where this is a hunt from blinds over feeders, I do want to make it a bit of a challenge, and I really have an interest in doing it with my cap and ball if I can, I just like the gun!

jeager106 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2005, 02:10:30 PM »

By all means go for it.
Why?
'Cause you want too!
Track of the Wolf sells Circle Fly wads. The 1/8 th " hard card for the .45 caliber works very well and are very cheap by the bag of 550 or 1000.
You will get more gg-whiz from 4fg but how much I don't know as I've never tried it.
I like my b.p. revolvers too. :grin:

Ramrod · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2005, 03:32:49 PM »

rvtrav, if these sheep are in a small fenced area, then your 3" group at 25 yards might be ok. If they can run a ways, you better limit the range to about half that, and only take head or spine shots. Otherwise you will find yourself with a tough tracking job, and little or no blood trail. These revolvers don't kill any better than a .38 Special and nobody I know considers that a big game round.