Author Topic: Reloads for self defense  (Read 1663 times)

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Offline Greeenriver

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« on: March 15, 2005, 11:50:38 AM »
I have always been told to use factory ammo for defense guns to avoid aditional problems from the lawyers over "Handloads" loaded to do more damage. I am sure that the rest of you have also been so warned.

Can anyone provide a specific case where the ammo used in a defensive shooting has been an issue??  Not "I heard of", or "My brother's Dr's sister" said, but a for real case, with case number and locatiation, where the type of ammo used was at all an issue in the case.

The reason I ask is that I have never heard of ar read of a case where the ammo used in a defensive shooting was any kind of an issue at all, and have never heard of or read of a case that resulted in a law suit over the type of ammo used in a defensive shoot.

A few months ago Sheriff Jim Wilson, in one of his articles in Shooting Times, was requesting anyone that could provide a case number or court dockett number on a case where the ammo used in a defensive shooting was used as an issue to contact him with the case number.  His research of court records and contacting Judjes and Law enforcement officers over America had been able to provide not even one case where the ammo used in a defensive shooting was used as an issue. This started me looking and contacting Lawyers, Judges, and Law Enforcement personal, and I have not been able to find a single case where the use of handloads was an issue or led to a law suit.

Please, if you have a specific case number to refere to, let me know so I can research it further.

Thank You all in advance,

          Greeenriver(Using handloads in all my defense guns and never worrying about it)
Most of life's problems can be handled by a sutiable application of high explosives

Offline Jim n Iowa

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2005, 01:25:17 PM »
Your post will probably get a lot of "curb stone attorney" replies as to the liability of handloads in self defence. A gun rag writer Aysoob or what ever the spelling, and I apologize, wrote an article in which he advised against hand loads for self defense. He cited no cases, so it must be his opinion. Within time it became written in stone. Your question will produce no case numbers that have been finalized in favour of the liability of handloads. In fact you can buy some fairly more damaging factory loads, than most of us would try. Good post, I usually do my tirade at the end.
Jim

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2005, 03:42:01 PM »
I have never seen or heard any of this. I use reloads in my CCW guns.  :D
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline Greeenriver

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2005, 07:16:58 PM »
I have posted this same, or very similar, request on several other boards in the last couple of years, and to date, nobody has been able to show one case where the ammo made a diference or was an issue.

As for me, I use reloads in all my guns, CCW included. I trust my loads more than I due factory loads. I know what I put in my CCW loads.

Greeenriver(Use what ever you feel comfortible with, it's your life(
Most of life's problems can be handled by a sutiable application of high explosives

Offline Redhawk1

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2005, 02:40:06 AM »
Quote from: Greeenriver
I have posted this same, or very similar, request on several other boards in the last couple of years, and to date, nobody has been able to show one case where the ammo made a diference or was an issue.

As for me, I use reloads in all my guns, CCW included. I trust my loads more than I due factory loads. I know what I put in my CCW loads.

Greeenriver(Use what ever you feel comfortible with, it's your life(


I know what you mean, I have never had one of my reloads fail to fire.  :D  But I have had factory loads fail to fire.  :eek:
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline volshooter

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2005, 06:54:05 AM »
I cannot find any examples either. I carry handrolled ammo myself.
Rick 8)

Offline williamlayton

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2005, 09:40:48 PM »
I would think, just my thinking, that the issue would be reliability not the question you posed.
If confidence is the issue, then you should use what you are most confident with.
Be certain--the issue could be more important than you realize at this time.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2005, 12:32:43 PM »
Greeenriver,

There are two issues here - criminal and civil.  If you shoot someone the concern will be the legality of the shooting, not the weapons or ammunition used.  In the past some lawyers have tried to go down that road and had their legal head handed to them on a platter.

Gun rags had constantly warned of the legal concerns of hand loading ammunition.  What is interesting is that they fail to mention ONE documented case where it was a primary issue.  Let us assume there is concern that the ammo you used was hyper-velocity in nature.  Loaded to the max.  Loaded to the edges of safety.  Then you use this to shoot someone in self-defense.  If the shooting is legal and found to be so, the matter is over.  THE END.

Civil suits are another animal.  However we come back to the issue of legality.  In most cases where no charges are filed or you are found innocent, it becomes difficult to make much progress in civil court.  In fact, you find that 80% or more of all civil cases never reach court after the original filing.  Most will be dismissed, or settled prior to court.  Any "expert" that claims any knowledge about court proceedings will know this.  In settlement papers both parties almost always wrap it up with no blame or negligence admitted by either side.  In my case the law suit was dropped after a number of months.  I still carry and use hand loaded ammo for both duty and self defense.  Lawdog
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Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline sniperVLS

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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2005, 04:08:49 PM »
My instructor warned us about the legalities of using handloads incase of an incident.

in my opinion, If something were to happen and I needed to use my Sig, id like to take the route where I do as little as possible that could haunt me in the future. I dont need some jackass finding out I used handloads and that opening up a whole new can of worms.

Ill stick with Hydrashoks thank you.

Ok, Ill step out of this thread now  :shock:

Offline JohnClif

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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2005, 09:35:45 PM »
I've reloaded quite a bit, and yet when I carry my gun is loaded with US-made premium self-defense factory ammunition. I believe a multi-million dollar, ISO 9001-certified ammunition factory is going to do a better job than me and my Dillon press (and you and your reloading press), especially on hard-to-reliably-reload rounds like the .45 ACP. My experiences gives added credence to this belief: I can tell you, after selling literally tens of millions of rounds of new US-manufactured factory ammo and having that ammo fired in my indoor range, the number of bad factory rounds (failure to fire where the primer has a deep indent, failure to feed due to an out-of-spec round) has been less than a half-dozen. That's amazingly good quality control. Correspondingly, it was commonplace to see someone's handgun choke on their handload (or someone else's handload, or on a commercial handload).

Concerning increased liability with handloads, I'm sure this is akin to LE officers getting in BIG trouble if they shoot a bad guy with non-deparment-authorized ammo. Depending on where you live and how anti-gun the general populace is, I could see someone paying a price for a hot handload. Maybe it's happened, maybe not. Why worry about it?

Make mine US factory. If it's good enough for the US military, and good enough for every federal, state, and local LE agency in the country, it's good enough for me. Defensive ammo is not an area that I'm concerned about spending a little more money on. In fact, we should view a defensive shooting situation as the ideal time to be appropriately profligate in our ammo expenditure, and screw the cost.

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2005, 05:01:54 AM »
Technically The rounds I carry are not reloads.
I use all new components so nothing is actually reloaded!
And the main reason I carry my own loads is that I have
Tailored a load that performs accurately and reliably
in my specific gun. This is sometimes not possible
with factory ammo. It is not that I have a load that
surpasses anything made by a factory, It is also that I have a
load that I did my own quality control on too.
I will take my chances in the legal system
But I will load my own defensive ammo.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Greeenriver

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« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2005, 09:07:36 AM »
Thanks to all that have steped in here to voice their reasons both for and against using "Reloads" for defense loads. My purpos in starting this thread was not to promote Reloads over Factory loads, or vice-versa, my purpos was to see what others think about the issues of legality, both criminal and civil, and to promote thoughts on the matter for everyone that read this thread, both posters and non-posters here.

In several years of questioning both law enforcement and members of the leagle profesion, I have not been able to find a single incodent of the origion of the ammo used in a defensive shooting being an issue.

Years ago, I was on a city police dept in a medium sized town in New Mexico, and we were issued 125grn JHP's in .357mag. These were factory loaded ammo from S&W. We were not restricted to using a .357mag pistol, as we purchesed our own guns, and if we used somethiong other than a .357, we were responsible for providing our ammo. The only restriction on what we provided was that it had to be JHP and at least as powerful as a 9mm. Several of us carried 9mm's, a couple carried 38's, and over the years I worked there, I carried .357, 38spc, 9mm, 45acp, 44(both spec and mag), and for a bit, an old Colt in 38-40.

Many times I carried factory loads, other times I loaded my own, and never did I feel at risk simply because of the ammo in my firearm.

Addressing the reliability issue, in over 50 years of shooting, to the best of my memory, I can remember only ONE factory round not going off other than in firearms that had broken some part of the fireing system.

However, I have been reloading my own ammo for over 40 years now, and I have NEVER had a dud round. Not one. Never. Personaly, I feel that I have been very lucky, as nearly everyone that reloads sooner or later has at least one dud round, I just havn't gotten to mine yet.

I do reload slowly, on a single stage press, and check every round several times during the process. This has helped, I am sure.

The only benifet to reloading for me, other than the pleasure I get from creating my own ammo and using it, is the ability to taylor a round for a specific purpos or firearm.

Personaly, I feel that factory ammo is as reliable as my reloads, and my reloads are as reliable as factory loads.  So reliabilty is not an issue with me.

However if I have to ever stake my own life, or the lives of loved ones on the quality of the ammo in my firearm, that ammo will be of my own doing, not someone elses.

Greeenriver(Again, thanks to all that have posted here, and to those that have read this thread. I hope it has made each of you give some thought to the ammo in your defensive firearm.)
Most of life's problems can be handled by a sutiable application of high explosives

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2005, 03:25:25 AM »
Greenriver:  I am glad you have your answer.  For years I have reloaded my own 45s but have stuck with 230 gn ball at factory loading.  I prefer Winchester factory components, especially the primers.  Sometimes I use the Winchester powders but not regularly.

I agree with JohnClif regarding the reliability of factory ammo but as with your practice I take my time and check my loads at every stage.  

My most recent load is a 230 gn ball over 7.3 of VVN350 for about 880'/sec.  This load shoots to the same point of aim as the S&B factory loads I usually carry.  If I have left the range and have only my reloads in my pistol I do not feel concerned, undergunned or that I might be carrying unreliable ammo.  Should anything ever happen and I need to use some of those loads to defend myself it would only be with ball ammo, not something that might raise a concern.

And just to be certain that my reloads and my pistol function in concert, using a lightweight commander I have owned and carried for almost 40 years I can still group near 2" at 25 yds.  If I had just one shot to make I would be as confident with my loads as with factory, maybe even moreso.  

I also thoroughly agree with S. Sumner.  All my components are new, so they aren't really reloads.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline Japle

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« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2005, 09:52:35 AM »
Massad Ayoob wrote an article - http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_51/ai_n11840291 - about this subject and cited an instance where it made a big difference to the armed citizen.
Personally, I carry the same ammo brand and type as the county deputies.  

John
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Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2005, 07:02:35 AM »
I've had factory ammo with inverted primers, inverted bullets, weak brass, even had one blow up in a perfectly good 45.  I haven't had any of those problems with my reloads, which now number over 120,000.  But I will NOT carry reloaded ammo on duty.  I work in a semi-major city, and there are way too many lawyers around here, hence there is a lot of competition for clients, and they are suing over anything.  Just because it doesn't happen a lot doesn't mean some lawyer won't try it.  Any way of discrediting a shooter, justified or not, will have an effect on the judge and/or jury.   Am I gonna give a lawyer one more way to attack me?  Not if I can help it!

My research, while less than scientific, has proven to me what works well out of MY guns, not a test barrel in some lab.  While my handloads are effective, I'm convinced that factory ammo is better than it has ever been, and I carry the best I can find.  After years of carrying Hydra-Shoks, Nyclads and Silvertips, I've made the switch to the Speer Gold Dot 135 in my duty gun.  It doesn't have a lengthy track record, but out of my gun it's deadly accurate and expands consistently, while retaining good penetration qualities.  That's good enough for me, what can a lawyer do with that?  Sure beats hanging my butt out in the breeze with a handload that some bottomfeeder will say I concocted to be a death ray!  And don't tell me no lawyer would do that, we all know they have little regard for truth!

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Offline Savage

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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2005, 09:06:35 AM »
With the canister powders and additives available exculsively to the ammo manufacturers, I can't load anything better. For that reason, I carry factory ammo.  Why bother with anything else?
Savage
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Offline dakota rifleman

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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2005, 09:00:55 AM »
I can see where reloads could cause a problem in civil cases. I have had several police friends confirm that to me. I carry a good factory loaded ammo in my 45 ACP for carry. Hand loads for everything else. When I carry my 357 I load +P 158 grain lead hollow point police loads. I have a Niece and a brother inlaw who are Federal Marshals. I got the same advise from them.
:gun4:  IT ONLY TAKES ONE( GOOD SHOT.)

Offline Mohawk

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« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2005, 09:49:20 AM »
A guy I used to work with actually credits reloads for possibly saving his life. The robber's stolen reloads only worked half the time. Don't know the caliber. But fortunately, my friend's two rounds of 00 buck were factory loaded and ended the fight for good.

Offline The Pistoleer

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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2005, 10:25:19 AM »
To me the " Evidentiary Element" is enough of a reason to carry factory loads.  It is a reasonable argument that if your lawyer needs to have some of your ammuntion to send to a lab for tests that it is provable that that ammuntion is identical to what was used in the shooting.

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Offline Greeenriver

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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2005, 09:16:44 AM »
"Can anyone provide a specific case where the ammo used in a defensive shooting has been an issue?? Not "I heard of", or "My brother's Dr's sister" said, but a for real case, with case number and locatiation, where the type of ammo used was at all an issue in the case"

"Please, if you have a specific case number to refere to, let me know so I can research it further"

Please, folks, we'er getting off subject here. I can think of lots of reasons both for and against the use of reloads for CCW use. That is not the primary purpose of this thread.  If I have gotten you thinking af the pros and cons of this issue, I am glad. Everyone should give some thought to the subject.  

However, Again, If you personaly know of a case where the ammo used in a justified shooting was a problem, can you provide the case and docket numbers??? I find myself very "unsure" of the reports that do not contain a case or docket number.

I also have trouble believing writers that tell of casses and refuse to provide a case or docket number. Without that number, it is almost imposable to verify the stories.

Thank you all for your input, please continue to give the subject thought, as someday, it may be you being asked questions after defending your own or a loved one's life and safety.

Greeenriver(I'm willing to be convinced, just provide case and dockett numbers)
Most of life's problems can be handled by a sutiable application of high explosives

Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2005, 01:22:48 AM »
Gosh, I'd just LOVE to be able to afford to put 500 rounds of Hydrashok thru my several handguns, but GOLLY GEEZE I actually work for a living and although I'm sure I'll win the lottery next week right now the expense is just a bit too much for my pocketbook to bear!  So, if I'm going to shoot what I practice with then I guess I'm pack'n reloads.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline HotGuns

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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2005, 01:00:57 PM »
That is a great question Greeeenriver and I'd like to know the answer myself.

One case to prove or disprove a point.

I have yet to see it.

With the great advances in bullet technology that weve seen even in the last 20 years, I doubt that reloading is going to offer much advantage over factory loads other than to tailor for better accuracy.

Since we are talking defensive handgun here though, I cant see where a few fractional inches would make a difference in an actual shooting.


anyhow...
I would really like to see a case where a handload used in a good shoot was even discussed.

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2005, 01:25:50 PM »
I have one concern about the issue of using reloaded ammunition in a defensive situation and that is the continual references to 'quoted sources' that fail tp provide sufficient documentation (location, case, file number, etc.,) to validate their statements.  I try to keep current on this issue and have yet to see or read of a case where someone was taken to task for using reloads in a defensive situation.  You can see it all you want on CSI or some other tv show but I have not yet heard or read of such in the real world.

The real world is also changing, and changing in favor of the armed citizen.  Jeb Bush, The Florida Governor recently signed into law the bill that both allows for the 'Castle' defense and the right not to have to flee.  It gives a citizen the right to stand his or her ground and to meet force with force.  One incredibly far-sighted benefit is the restriction on criminals and family, etc., to sue for damages in justified shooting situations.  

Soooo, I guess that in Florida, at least and for now, this renders the issue of using handloaded ammunition in defensive situations somewhat moot.  JMHO.  Mikey.

Offline Mauser

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« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2005, 05:34:38 AM »
I wanted to address one of the posts made a while ago on this thread.  The problem with the civil lawsuit when it comes to this type of liablility is that while about 90% of the cases settle out of court and that no liability is admitted by either side, the defendant is paying big bucks to settle.  Hardly a great victory or small risk.

All this being said, I never understood the problem with using handloads or reloads for CCW or defense because all the components are made by a corporation somewhere.  After all, who among us is manufacturing their own primers, smokeless powder, jacketed bullets, or cases these days?  If one is using the Nosler manual, for example, and following their recipie, what you wind up with is a Nosler factory round of sorts.

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2005, 06:10:08 AM »
Marshall, Sanow, Ayoob......All gun writers paid by the ammunition companies?  Could they be a little BIAS for cold hard cash....
possibly.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Japle

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« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2005, 08:37:11 AM »
An author gets paid for his work.  I'd pay more attention to someone who's well known for his work that some amateur.  

John
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Offline Dusty Miller

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« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2005, 08:46:13 AM »
Boy, this topic seems to have long legs!  I'm still waiting for information about just ONE criminal conviction based on the use of home made ammo.  Of COURSE the civil suite is another matter altogether, especially here in the PRC and states like it.  Geeze, I'd give my first born child to escape from this squirrel cage!  For the record, I ain't never had no young'ns.  But I'd be tickled pink to get out anyway.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Greeenriver

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« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2005, 04:23:58 PM »
Sure surprised me to find this still here, also.  Plesently surprised.

I hope that all who have read or posted here on this thread have given lots of thought to the ammo used in your own defensive guns. I am sure that most of you have, or you wouldn't be reading here anyway.

Ultimatly, we are each responsible for what we use, and more discussion and hearing others opinions can only help each of us to make a wise decision on what we use.

Again, thank all who have joined in on this discussion.

Be safe.

Greeenriver
Most of life's problems can be handled by a sutiable application of high explosives

Offline EdK

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« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2005, 03:09:54 PM »
Wow,

Here is an interesting post that I've missed. Yes, I've been hearing for years not to be caught with handloads in a defense situation. Yes, it is usually one or two gunwriters - specifically those named in this post who spew this stuff. No, I've not heard of anything in the way of a case concerning this topic. I'll be sure to follow this post to see if much of anything is added.

I guess it should be OK to carry my own handloads instead of those Black Talons  :)