Ballistics Question - a two parter????

[NimrodRx]

Okay here's the deal.  My buddy picked up a new 50 cal ML last week.  I've only been shooting MLs for about a year and a half now, so I'm not exactly the best teacher....

So here are our findings.  I shoot a 50 cal. Knight Disc Elite. topped with a 3X9 Bushnell 3200 Elite.  After working up several loads, I found that my gun liked 100 gr of FFG 777 loose powder pushing a 300 gr Barnes Expander Sabot.  

At 50 yds, I had 3 holes touching each other and the fourth was half an inch off (off a solid bench).  All were 1 inch high.  I was elated!!  The surprise came when we moved out to 100 yds.  My groups were still good (1.5 inch), but I was hitting 2.5 inches below the bull.  A 3.5 inch drop from 50 to 100 yards.

Is this normal???  That seems like a lot.  I was expecting an inch high at 50 would put me on the bull at 100???

My buddie's gun even surprised me more.  He was shooting the same 100 gr of loose 777, but was pushing a 285 gr Buffalo Bullet.  He was getting 1 inch groups at 50, but was hitting 5 inches high.  Bc the gun was new and we just wanted to see how it would group, we didn't adjust the scope.  When he slid down to 100 yds, he was hitting 7 inches high (2 inch groups).  Why would he be hitting higher at 100 than at 50?

The only thing I can come up with is that the bullet was still climbing with the axis of the gun?  We ran out of time so we never got a chance to zero the gun at 50.  If he zeros it at 50, would it be likely to be dropping at 100?

Any advice from the experts is appreciated.  Thanks.

[AndyHass]

Neither sounds too out of the ordinary.  Seems like a bit much drop for your Knight in 50 yards, but I've seen stranger things.  You only shot each distance once though...With only 3 inches to work with there, it might be possible it was the gun or the shooter contributing an inch or two.
   Your buddy's gun makes sense.  He's got a lot of elevation dialed in to shoot 5 inches high at 50 yards!  No surprise the bullet is still climbing at 100.

[NimrodRx]

Thanks Andy, yah, I used up most of my time trying to get my rifle to like BM3 - no luck.  By the time we found a load/charge that grouped nice, we had to head for home.

I had shot A LOT by the time I moved to 100 yds (I was also shooting my 12 ga A-Bolt).  The big drop could have been me.

5 inches high at 50 is pretty significant.  I can't wait to see what happens with those Buffalo Bullets when he zero's them at 100.  I may find myself putting the Barnes back on the shelf and moving to the BB....

[Busta]

Okay here's the deal.  My buddy picked up a new 50 cal ML last week.  I've only been shooting MLs for about a year and a half now, so I'm not exactly the best teacher....

So here are our findings.  I shoot a 50 cal. Knight Disc Elite. topped with a 3X9 Bushnell 3200 Elite.  After working up several loads, I found that my gun liked 100 gr of FFG 777 loose powder pushing a 300 gr Barnes Expander Sabot.  

At 50 yds, I had 3 holes touching each other and the fourth was half an inch off (off a solid bench).  All were 1 inch high.  I was elated!!  The surprise came when we moved out to 100 yds.  My groups were still good (1.5 inch), but I was hitting 2.5 inches below the bull.  A 3.5 inch drop from 50 to 100 yards.

Is this normal???  That seems like a lot.  I was expecting an inch high at 50 would put me on the bull at 100???

My buddie's gun even surprised me more.  He was shooting the same 100 gr of loose 777, but was pushing a 285 gr Buffalo Bullet.  He was getting 1 inch groups at 50, but was hitting 5 inches high.  Bc the gun was new and we just wanted to see how it would group, we didn't adjust the scope.  When he slid down to 100 yds, he was hitting 7 inches high (2 inch groups).  Why would he be hitting higher at 100 than at 50?

The only thing I can come up with is that the bullet was still climbing with the axis of the gun?  We ran out of time so we never got a chance to zero the gun at 50.  If he zeros it at 50, would it be likely to be dropping at 100?

Any advice from the experts is appreciated.  Thanks.

NimrodRx,

You wouldn't happen to be from the U.P., would ya? Ok, I'm no expert but I will give it a shot.

Your gun has me a little more puzzled than your buddies. If you have your load dialed in at 1" high at 50 yards and IF your bullet was a light bullet with no drop you would essentially be hitting 2" high at 100yds with your bullet hitting 1" high at 50yds. Now we all know this isn't how gravity works and I hope I am not getting you confused and lost you already, because we all know that a bullet starts to drop as soon as it leaves the barrel. Now your line of sight through either sights or a scope depending on how high they are above the barrel come into play here. Your line of trajectory at some point will cross your line of sight, they will not be parallel otherwise you would never get a bullet into the bulls eye.  Depending on your set-up, the bullet might be crossing your line of sight at let's say around 25 yds and reaching it's apex (high point) of your trajectory at 50 yds, and is probably crossing your line of sight on the way down at around say 70 to 75 yds, it's all down hill from there due to gravity . 3-1/2" does seem a bit much, but nothing is an exact science when it comes to muzzleloaders. Did you ever look at any of your sabots, sometimes they can tell you what is going on.

Now for your buddies gun and load. If he has the gun dialed in 5" high at 50 yds and just like before, IF the bullet he was shooting was light and flat shooting with no drop he would be hitting 10" high at 100yds. Now again we all know it doesn't work this way but I hope you can understand what I am getting at. So if he is hitting 5" high at 50 yds, and 7" high at 100 yds, the high point in his trajectory is a lot further down range than yours is. His apex might be in the 100 yd to 125 yd range. 5" high at 50 yds, is way to much elevation and the bullet is likely crossing his line of sight on the way up at a very short distance from the muzzle and climbing to its apex at 100 to 125 yds and may not be crossing the line of sight on the way down until it's 150 yds down range. His apex could be 7" or even 8" above his line of sight.

Bottom line is you have to learn your trajectory for any given load by shooting them and keeping records, it is the only way to truly know where your bullet is going. Trajectory Charts are nice but there are many variables that come into play such as barrel length that changes things.

Just my 2 cents. :? ....and might not even be worth that. :wink:

[Mark whiz]

What Busta'yote said.  :lol:

I'd say that it sounds like your rifle is zeroed at maybe 75yds tops and your buddy's is zeroed in the 125 to 150yd range.

According to my ballistics table, if your load was zeroed at 75 yds, you could expect a total of 10" or more of total bullet drop at 100yds. But then you have to factor in the arc you're firing in to see how that relates to the target itself at 100yds. If you adjust your scope to put you 2" high at 50 yds, you'll be real close to the bullseye at 100yds with that same load.

[NimrodRx]

Thanks guys.  I appreciate it.  

Man, I can’t wait to get to the range and do some more tinkering.  Is it Saturday yet???

I know it’s all speculation, but what do you think the chances are of getting that 300 gr Barnes Expander to shoot flatter with more powder?  What if I went to 110 or 120 gr of loose T7?  

They also make a 250 gr Barnes Expander.  Would dropping 50 grs be enough to flatten things out?

I really want (and feel I should be able to get) a solid 150 yrd rifle.  However, with the drop I saw last Sat., this combo. isn’t going to get me there.  I was hoping/expecting to be 2 inches high at 50 yds, zeroed at 100 and maybe 3 inches low at 150 (still in the kill zone).  Again, maybe the drop was partially due to me.  I shot nearly 50 rounds (between ML and 12 ga slugs) so I was pretty fatigued.

I picked up some of the 285 gr Buffalo Bullets to try too.  I’m not at all opposed to shooting these, especially if they’re going to be flatter.  I just kinda have a soft spot for the Expanders.  I’m partial to pass throughs and these things have been amazing in my 12 ga.  Federal Premium uses a Barnes Expander in their 12 ga saboted slugs.  

I’ll let you guys know what happens on Sat.  Just wondered if anybody might have a guess as to what I should expect.  Thanks again.

[Mark whiz]

Any increase in charge or reduction in bullet weight will result in less drop for any given bullet.  It's just a matter of what the changes do to accuracy.

A change to a more ballistic bullet (like the SSTs/Shockwaves) might result in flatter shooting as well.

Go ahead and re-sight to being 2" high at 50 and see what happens with your loads at 100.  But unless you drop down to 200gr or less bullets, you're still looking at around 6" of drop between 100 to 150yds.  That's just the nature of the beast with muzzleloading with black powder & it's substitutes.  That's one reason why you need to practice a LOT in order to be accurate with these things at 150yds - there ain't no easy solution.

Your best bet might be to get where you want to be at 100yds and then go practice at 150yds to see how much you need to change your scope to make those shots work.  As long as you know how many clicks to go - you can always return to your 100yd zero.

[NimrodRx]

Thanks again Mark.  I did try the 285 gr Barnes Spitfires too.  They're essentially the same as the expanders, but have a spire point and a boat tail.  Theoretically, the should be ballisticly superior.  Unfortunately, I couldn't get them to group as well as the Expanders - go figure.  

I will definately raise my point of impact to 2 inches high at 50 and see what happens at 100.  I think I might try bumping up to 110 gr and see if I can keep my accuracy.  I'm also going to give those Buffalo Bullets and the lighter Expanders a try too.  I'll let you know what I find out.

Thanks again.

[iisabigone]

Nimrod I have some different thoughts and experiences than most of the other posters.

I have a knight disk mag with the 26 inch barrel(not the elite) that I hunt with quite a bit. Im shooting 100 gr of 777 ffg and the 250 grain xtp with a knight high pressure sabot.

When I shoot the 1st round from a clean cold barrel I hit 3 inches high. I can then spit patch and dry patch reload and shoot another round that will hit with the first round.

My third shot after spit patch and dry patch will hit in the bulls eye 3 inches lower and all following shots with spit patch and dry patch will group in this group.

This tendency of the knight had me freaking out when I first got it and was trying to sight it in at 100 yards.

In my opinion this repeatable and predicatble change in POI is due to the fouling buildup in the rifling by the first two shots.

My omega will put the first two shots 3 inches high and then print in the middle of the bullseye also just like my knight.  It is repeatable and predictable for me.

Im one of those guys that hunts on a clean barrel. I know where my first two shots are going. If I need more than two shots either something good has happend(two dead bucks) or something bad has happened(I messed up).

If you dont want to hunt on a clean barrel shoot a couple rounds before you start sighting in your gun.  Just spit patch and dry patch between loads.

I would just shoot your gun somemore and see if your gun does the same everytime you shoot it from a clean bore and fouled bore.

I enjoy something that is consistant that I can rely on(once I know what they are).  All guns have different good and bad attributes just like wimmins.

[NimrodRx]

Good advice iisabigone.  I'll see what happens this weekend when I'm starting out with a clean, cold bore.  

I know a lot of guys get better groups when their barrel is fouled.  I too like to shoot a fouling shot.  The problem is that I just won't put my rifle away dirty.  That means that I have to shoot a fowling shot just prior to the hunt.  I hunt some fairly residential areas and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate me touching off my 50 cal at 5:30 in the morning....

That's why I always swab in between shots.  Figure it's more indicitive of what my bore will be like when the moment of truth arrives.

I'll let you know what I find this weekend.

[Keith Lewis]

Relative to POI clean bore vs. fouled bore: that is another thing I like about the Black Mag'3 powder. I found in my rifle the difference in Point of Impact is less than 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I too do not like fouling the bore before I go hunting. I sometimes won't shoot for several days as the elk sometimes do not present themselves for muzzleloader shots. With the Black Mag'3 clean vs. fouled is not a problem as well as a lot of other problems that have now gone away (like crud ring, corrosion, multiple patches to shoot second shot etc.). I still have some of the other powders and will probably shoot them when I am just shooting; but for hunting I will not use any other powder than Black Mag'3. I even have some real black powder that my Hawken will probably like but not in my Omega.

[AndyHass]

The Barnes Expander is a 150yd bullet...I think it's stretched at 200 but 150 for sure.  If you can hold accuracy up to 120 gr, you will be set.  I'd drop to the lighter 250 grain bullet if you can.
    If you are REALLY concerned about flattening your trajectory and minimizing the remifications of range estimation error out to 150 yards, try the SST/Schockwaves or Precision Rifle Dead Centers.  In my Traditions Lightning, 4" high at 100 yds with the .357 195 gr DC over 100gr 777 (1998 fps) gave me a 200 yard zero.  In my Omega, a 200gr Shockwave over 110gr 777 (2100 fps) 3.5" high at 100yds gave me a 200yd zero.
    If you are limiting yourself to 150 yards, these loads (if good in your gun) would allow you to be within less than 3" vertical spread from 50-150 yards!

[jeff223]

Andy are you an expert when it comes to the Barnes Expanders?

i dont think so :wink:

[sabotloader]

jeff223,

I probably should not answer for Andy and will not attempt to do so - suffice to say I really do not know how many "experts" are out there, but I would let you know that he, Andy, has a heck of a lot of exprience - if that counts....

Just my thoughts....

[NimrodRx]

I'm certain you're both more of an "expert" than me.  I appreciate the insight.

I will be heading to the range on Sat.  Picked up some of the 250 gr expanders and some 285 gr Buffalo Bullets.  I'm anxious to see how much (if any) flatter these are as opposed to the 300 Expander.  I'm also anxious to see if I can keep my accuracy with 120 gr of T7.  

Surprisingly, the Expanders shot better for me than the Barnes Spitfire.  I figured the Spitfires would be better due to the spire point and boat tail.  Go figure.  

For what it's worth, I did try the 220 gr Dead Centers from PR.  They didn't group nearly as well as the expanders.

Typically, I'm a fan of all lead bullets, but these Expanders seem impressive.  In fact, I've been playing with the Federal Premium 12 ga slugs with the Barnes Expander sabot in them too.  Awesome groups with my A-Bolt.  Looks like I'll be using the Expander in my 12 ga too.  I can't wait to put one of these things through the pump house of a whitetail.  

[Mark whiz]

While I definitely like Precision Rifle's bullets - I'm not a big fan of the Dead Centers. My Knight just will NOT shoot them as well as their QTs or the old Extreme HPs.  I noticed while doing my Chronograph shooting, that the DCs had a much larger ES (Extreme Spread) than the QTs or Extremes. And a difference of 100fps at 100yds will definitely result in a different point of impact - i.e. a larger group.

Really the only difference between the QTs & DCs are that the older style QTs  have a band that runs around the circumference of the bullet, while the DCs don't.  This makes the DCs more areodynamic, But I'm thinking that the band around the QTs give them a more consistent pressure against the sabot an therefore the sabot against the bore.  A more consistent fit in the bore will result in more consistent velocities, if all other variables are equal.

Nimrodx - you "might" want to try the 300gr Precision QTs for a little flatter shooting bullet............................these things have grouped as well as .274" at 75yds for me (and that is at 2" high on the target at 75yds and about an 1.25" high at 100yds).

[NimrodRx]

Well, I made it back to the range today.  What a “blast.”  Lots of good findings.

I first bumped up the charge with the 300 gr Expander.  With 120 gr of T7, my groups really didn’t suffer much.  I was at 2 inches at 50 yards and 3-4 inches at 100 yards.  My biggest complaint - the crud that all that T7 produced.  I use a spit patch between each shot.  With 120 gr of T7, the spit patch was actually difficult to pull out.  There was just a lot more crud.

I then tried the 120 gr T7 with the 250 gr Expander.  Not surprisingly, this was too much charge for the 250 gr bullet.  I got about 6 inch groups at 50 yards.

I then went down to 100 gr of T7 with the 250 gr Expander.  Found the sweet spot!    They grouped every bit as good as the 300 gr Expander with the same charge (maybe better) and the trajectory was considerably flatter.  With a 100 yard zero, I’m only an inch and a half high at 50.  The groups are amazing.  My first six shots with this combo. at 50 yds were all touching.  I then proceeded to shoot my first sub. MOA with this rifle at 100 yds.  Three shots within ¾ of an inch.  I have found my whitetail load!  I can’t wait to see what is happening to the bullet at 125 and 150 yards.  Better yet, I can’t wait to see what these things do to the pump house of big buck. :-D

As an aside, I also tried the 245 gr Barnes Expander Spitfire.  One would think that this bullet would have been superior - it has a spire point and boat tail.  Surprisingly, my groups increased by 1-2 inches with this bullet compared to the regular Expander.  Go figure…. :?

I also tried the 285 grain Buffalo Bullet Special Sabot.  These things practically dropped down my bore.  Way too loose.  I guess I could get some bigger sabots and try them, but what’s the point?  The Expanders shoot AWESOME and I like the pass through potential offered by the solid copper bullet.  Thanks again guys!