Author Topic: I want an accurate load for what ever!!!!!!!!!!!! (Read 1007 times)

Catfish · « **on:** March 02, 2005, 01:42:24 PM »

Every time I see someone post that they want an accurate load for what ever round they have I know that they know nothing about reloading. There are certain combonation of bullet weight and powders that seem to work better in some rounds, but every gun is different, to say nothing about those that have barrels with non-standard twist rates. I have seen afew guns that bullet seating depth had a bigger effect on accuracy than did powder or bullet. If you want a good accurate load, WORK IT UP! That`s the only way you`ll know you have a good load.
Sorry about the rant, but I`ve been rolling my own since 1965. At present I have 3 different .17 cal. rounds I shoot, 4 different .22 cal rounds plus several other varmint cal. I also load for for 6 different wildcat at present. They range from the .17 AH to the .411 Hawk, and I wish someone would give me a good accurate load for them and each new rifle I buy. :roll: but then what would the chalange be?

? If it ain`t wroth working for it probibly ain`t worth haveing. :wink:

Questor · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2005, 01:48:43 PM »

I've gotten a few good ideas by doing such surveys, and I know I've given good advice to others who have done so. It's a great way to help make a short list of components that really work. This is especially helpful for more less popular cartridges for which little data is available.

Catfish · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2005, 02:29:03 PM »

Questor,
You may have a point, but I do not trust any load except those form the Powder, the bullet manfacture or some other sorce that test their data. As I said I load alot of rounds that there is about no data for and one that I have never seen ant data for any where. I have a pretty good reference libary here and a good feel for the powder burn rate chart so in a very short time I`ll have a starting point from which to work up a load if you give me a case volume, bore diameter and bullet weight. But as you said, You got ideas fo what powder, bullets ect. to TRY!!!!!! There are alot of rounds, like the old .222 Rem. Most of the guns chambered in that round would shoot well with any good 50 grn. bullet and 4198 powder, or H-322, H-335 or Blc-2 or several other powders. Seating depth was usually not real critical eather. BUT, there are alot of other rounds that are far more critical when it comes to matching bullets, powder and charge, seating depth and the rest.
I`m not trying to be hard to get along with, but there is much more to internal and external blastics than most shooters know exist and with out some understanding of each if you do work up an accurate load it will just be by luck. :roll: I guess if you do have some understanding of them and work-up an accurate load it will be from luck, but just a little less luck.
I guess I`m just one of them old guys that have played on the edge for too long and let little things get to me more than I should. :? Funny though, the more I learn the more questions I have, :roll: and the less something seem to make sence. :eek:

myronman3 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:16:57 PM »

basically, you are belly aching that others are asking for advise from guys (like you) who have a lot more experience. those who share our interests are a unique group and it is our job to pass on what we can to others; just as someone surely passed on some of their expereince and knowlege to you. if we dont, our ranks will surely wither and die.
i do get tired of certain topics myself; such as: if you could only have one of...

. i just steer clear of these cliches. so while i understand your pain, we also have to see the bigger picture.

MickinColo · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:28:47 PM »

Catfish,

It drives me nuts too. Buy a Book! Get a Program! Or Back away from the reloading bench, put your hands on your head and surrender to the Im an Idiot Police! Because youre a danger to yourself and everyone around you.

MickinColo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:42:22 PM »

Remember friends,

Anyone can be anything they want to be on the Web. And any one can be an unquestionable expert on the Web.

I'm not an expert, but I play the roll of one after a few beers. :-)

Questor · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2005, 03:46:35 PM »

I don't use actual load data gotten from the web, I only use published data from the major labs. But it is nice to see what's worked well for others. The trouble with the major books is that you get a lot of options. For many cartridges, some powders, for example, work particularly well. For example, IMR 4198 in 221 fireball or Hodgdon 4831 in 270 winchester. This is part of the lore of shooting and it's what shooters share with one another.

JBMauser · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:02:49 PM »

I think there are two reasons why many miss the point. The first I will call the Bell Curve mentality we all learned about in our secondary education. The notion that you scatter a bunch of good loads, some will fall at the top of the curve.....Magic will ocure...Thats science right?? The second is the absense of the concept that each rifle with its fodder is a SYSTEM not puzzle where you change out pieces to see what fits. I don't think many think about a business card shim to dampen a barrel being as viable as changing powder to tighten a group. Harmonics and bullet whip are tough to understand in concept and we have no easy way to pull out any empierical data. So you rule it out, it is easier to consider every 30/06 barrel to be the same isn't it? I must admit that I understand the ladder method of load development but I never took the time to actually do it. To much work.. JB

longwinters · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:19:31 PM »

I have been reloading for only a couple of years. Obviously nothing like you guys have been. When I first started I bought several reloading books, read everything I could get my hands on etc...I still had lots of questions. With out knowing anyone who reloaded to get those answers I asked here. Yep, I asked what were good powders for the calibers I wanted to reload for. Why? Mostly because I was on a very limited budget and could not buy all 10 powders that Nosler or some other company used when they did their manuals. Some generally work better than others for specific calibers. Others are a good bet for many calibers (like the 4831 and 4350 powders). But if you don't know you are crazy not to ask. I don't want to reinvent the wheel and don't expect anyone else to. I did lots of experimenting with different componants, OAL etc...but I wanted to at least start at a reasonable place and not just be "swaping componants" and hoping for something good to happen.

Long

jhalcott · « **Reply #9 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:29:14 PM »

I've been rolling my own for over 45 years(turned 60 23rd) .I have reloading manuals older than lots of guys on here.I don't have ALL the manuals,so I ask what others have found using certain components.It's cheaper than buying a 20-30$ manual for 200 bullets that I MAY not ever use again. Some times I get a rifle /pistol that is NOT in any loading book because it is new or a wild cat. SOOO...!
Any way I'm glad to see you have gulped down some coffee and are getting some rest. We all get a litle frustrated at times,but I remember my Grand pop showing me how to load on a Lee loader. Sure miss him!

hylander · « **Reply #10 on:** March 02, 2005, 04:44:08 PM »

A little Rant of my own:
First I am a Seasoned loader and I still ask for other's pet loads for cartridges I have not loaded yet and their experiances with that cartidge. so I guess I qualify for the "Idiot Police".
Some of you say "Buy a Book or Program", So I take it you have Reloading book's or Program's ?, which would mean your useing someone else's Data you did not research Yourself :shock: .
I guess you qualify for the Idiot Police as well (Shame) :roll: .
The reason most of us that ask for an Accurate load that works for someone else is to get a good place to start instead of guessing where to start in the Manual, other wise I guess one could just buy a pound of every brand of Powder, a hundred rd. of every bullet made, a brick of every Primer made and few hundred of every Brand of brass and have at it. Of cousre we would never get to try it all because the barrel wore out after 10,000 rd., so we get to buy a new rifle and start all over again.
I am alway's more than willing to help out anyony that ask's,
It is a Shame that some feel they are to busy or above that poor wretch that should be arrested by the Idiot Police to share their Knowledge of a great sport and help someone shorten the learning curve and avoid having to spend countless hours and ton's of money only to be discouraged and give up on it.
Rant Mode over

earschplitinloudenboomer · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2005, 08:21:05 PM »

I recently pruchased a milsurp, CZ52 in 7.62X25. There is very little data available. I asked for help on several boards. I recieved, mostly reasonable valuable advice. Combined with published data that I could find, my very first load is more accurate than S&B, in my gun. I've been loading for over 25 years, I enjoy working up loads, but I also enjoy sharing with and asking from others. I find that talking to shooting buddies about reloading is a part of the experience...I feel that the message boards are an extension of that circle of shooting buddies.

best to you and yours...
ears-

jh45gun · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2005, 09:29:33 PM »

I feel there is nothing wrong with asking for ideas or a place to start! To be on the safe side get the replys and then look at a manual to see if they are on the hot side or not and then work it on up. I am a on and off reloader reloaded some pistol cartridges back in the 70's with a lee loader and reloaded some shot shells with a Mec JR back then and have loaded for a 45/70 for about 5 years now about a year ago went whole hog and have dies for most of my rifles now except for my 7mm which I have to get yet and when I buy a Swill 31 will get dies for that. So for the most part I am a newby and I like to see what has worked for others and while it may work in their gun no guarantee it will in yours still it is usefull information. Catfish, No law that says you HAVE TO REPLY to post you do not. Jim

ButlerFord45 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 03, 2005, 01:42:49 AM »

New gun, twist known, 1 bullet weight chosen for purpose, three manuals=18 different powders x 5 different primers (which have been known to make a difference)= 90 component combinations= appx $400. Yeah, I think I can see why folks might ask what others have used with success.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #14 on:** March 03, 2005, 02:52:03 AM »

The only dumb question is a question not asked........If you don't want to try to help someone with a starting point, simply don't respond to the post!

High Brass · « **Reply #15 on:** March 03, 2005, 02:56:33 AM »

I've been involved in handloading for almost 15 years. I either assisted my Dad or did my own and have learned alot. One thing I have learned is that I am by no means an expert. When Dad was loading rounds for my 243, 45, or 41 mag it was simple. He basically did all the grunt work involving component selection and I just helped load(or load them myself) and shoot. Simple right? Well then I got older, got my own place, started loading my own, then it was my job to figure out what to load. When I got my 280 a few years ago, I knew that several powders, bullets,etc. would work but it gave me a warm and fuzzy to post questions on forums to get information from folks that have loaded 280 for years. Then after sorting out the info, I came up with my solution. I didn't necessarily take one person's load and go with it, but I got info/data from several folks and it helped me with my decision. Long story somewhat shorter, it helps sometimes to at least get a starting point when you're trying something new. I dare say that 10 years from now someone will post a question "does anyone have a good 30-06 load?" and of course 100+ replies will flow in. Just my personal feelings.

Questor · « **Reply #16 on:** March 03, 2005, 03:38:00 AM »

I agree with Butlerford.

Just to say "I did it" I went through the process of developing a 1 MOA load for my factory 10" Contender barrel. I got the factory barrel instead of paying the extra $150 for a custom barrel in that caliber. By the time I found a component combination that worked as I wanted I had well over $150 in component purchases. Since I had no use for the ones that didn't work out, I gave the components to my buddy the rifle nut to play with.

Moral of story? Either get lucky, lower your expectations, plan on spending some money, or buy very good equipment.

Personally, I believe the old days of working up a load are practically over. This is because machining has made our guns so consistent and precise that we can buy a $500 rifle that will shoot sub-MOA groups. My $500 CZ 550 in .270 shot the smallest 5 shot group I've ever personally seen at .25" My other guns are accurate too (but not THAT accurate). These days, unless you're looking for maximum accuracy for competition or have guns more than 20 years old, the best method is to do a little homework, try one or two powders, and forget it. You'll get good loads if the gun is good to begin with.

Another benchmark for testing a guns accuracy with today's guns is simply using factory ammo. Accuracy from factory ammo today tells almost everything about the inherent accuracy of a gun. You can improve with some experimentation if you really want to, but if a gun shoots 1.5" groups with factory ammo, you've got a good gun. If it shoots bigger groups, plan on "working up a load". Either that, or just trade the gun for a new one that has a reputation for accuracy.

skb2706 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 03, 2005, 03:58:08 AM »

Those of us who have been handloading (reloading by the way is a different process) since long before the internet had few options but to read....read and read some more to learn. Although a much slower process for learning I believe we come away with a broader knowledge of the art ( yes it is an art). With that said if I were just beginning I would solicit information from whatever media was available including forums. I crossreference loading manuals and have for years......cross referencing internet forums loading info. would go without saying. One of the huge benefits in internet info. it can eliminate alot of the "recreating the wheel" aspects. Tricks and hints that otherwise go unnoticed or kept secret are now at your fingertips.

To this all, I say "ask away".........if you know a certain powder/bullet combination works well in your particular gun fine. It could concievably save me or others some time and money if all we want is to get to an "ends". I personally like the whole process and will spend countless hours trying different combinations...because that is what I like to do.

BrushBuster · « **Reply #18 on:** March 03, 2005, 06:01:15 AM »

I started handloading quite late in my life, and as we all know the learning curve is long enough if you take this hobby seriously; also, I live in a remote region that requires long delivery waiting times and exaggerated prices!

Without the generosity of others in sharing their knowledge, I would still be stumbling along and perhaps making serious mistakes. Sure, you can't assume that any "pet load" will be safe or effective in your firearm, but that is drummed into a beginner from the start in all publications and on every component label. Sharing knowledge, without patronizing the neophyte is what makes this forum so valuable and will keep this sport and hobby alive.

Yes, the beginner also has a responsibility to supplement such easily acquired knowledge with self-motivated research, but the sharing has been the nicest part of joining the handloading fraternity. I keep a list of those on this forum that have helped me along the way, and I contact them when I make progress or reap the benefit of their assistance.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #19 on:** March 03, 2005, 10:17:04 AM »

I have been reloading for close to 40 yrs now. I'm not really into the art of it, case neck runout ect., I make safe ammo that's accurate and work's. I've seen over the year's far to many people show up at different places shooting and if the field hunting, that have had thing's go terriblely wrong with their reload's. It's a wonder that many of them haven't killed themselves.

Reloading is a very safe pastime when properly done. Even for those that don't do all the little trick's to get that last 10th in accuracy out. But it can also be a very dangerous pastime for the unknowing. I have no problem with passing on what I do know. I also ask at time's about load data, There's really a lot I don't have and, like the 243, cartridge's I haven't done a whole lot of loading for.

Knowledge unshared is wasted knowledge. And I've little use for anyone that would sit by as another obviously set's himself up for a potential disaster. Share your knowledge, it's the only thing you have of real value.

skb2706 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 03, 2005, 10:48:18 AM »

well said Don.................

Ricci Price · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2005, 08:39:23 AM »

25-06 ,52 grains of 4350 ,100 grain nosler ballistic tip, cci 200 primer,oal 3.250 ,necks turned,remington cases ha ha ha (lol)

Mac11700 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2005, 04:40:15 AM »

Catfish:

While it may seem to be a pain for you each and evertime someone ask that question...you at least have the opourtunity to guide them down the correct path to reloading...by sharing your knowledge and giving them correct and safe data to start with...not all who post questions here are well off finacially..and maynot have the means to purchase all the different relaoding manuals,or computer programs that you currently own and use.Why cop an attitude against those just starting out? Even you had to start somewhere...

Mac

Flash · « **Reply #23 on:** March 27, 2005, 06:01:06 AM »

To me, the confusing thing here is when someone thinks they have all the answers and they simply don't want to give them up. I know that I struggled with accuracy issues before and found out it wasn't the load after all. Sometime, hearing that someone else uses the same load and got acceptable results will jog one's thought process to look elsewhere. I have no problem with sharing the knowledge that I've gained over the years, the part that bothers me is if and when I make a mistake sharing the information, it could prove to be harmful. Let's all share what we feel comfortable with and use caution with the newcomers. That is being both responsible and giving and there doesn't have to be a challenge associated with it at all!

Catfish · « **Reply #24 on:** March 27, 2005, 02:59:45 PM »

It`s not that I don`t do alot of posting here and on acouple of other boards trying to help people with problems and I don`t mind shareing what I`ve picked up over the years. I also pick-up afew trick here and there that I have put to use. The problem is that the answers are usually not that easy. There are some powders that seem to work well in some rounds in about everybody gun and some bullets that are that way. I just took a quick look at a burn rate chart and noticed that there are 34 different powders that are of the proper burn rate for the .222-.223 class of rounds. Some, like 4198, have a rep. for accuracy and other you never hear of being used. That kind of info. I have no trouble passing. I hate to give powder charge weights on the net, I`ve found several typo`s that were extremely dangerous and 1 load that would blow up a house if it were fired inside it. I will say max. recomanded load or the such. I often give out web pages that have manufactures data or other tested data. I also disagree with Questors statement about todays guns being more accurate. I would agree that you can buy more accurate factory ammo than you could years ago, but most of the gun manufactures are turnning out lower quality gun, though some have gotten alittle better just recently from what I`m hearing. If you want a good shooting factory gun get ready to pay for it!! Quality cost and crap don`t shot.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2005, 06:10:08 AM »

Catfish:

I don't blame you in the least for not wanting to give out personal loading data... IF it exceeds a manufactures recommended charge or deviates from a published/recommended load.....anytime you start trying to exstrapolate data.... exchanging 1 component for another.... you run the risk of potintial trouble...and any new reloader should be made aware of that issue right up front......A-lot of us have been reloading for far-longer than we care to admit...and this sometimes makes us complacent in our thinking habits...thinking we know better than those who have the best testing equipment in the world,simply because we have been lucky in the past with a paticular "hot" load....all new reloaders need to know to follow the guidelines that are published in the reloading guides and manuals ...and be made aware that that data is for comparison purpouses only...and that it isn't a garuntee that it will give the exact same results in their rifles... Then if they decide to strike out on their own and try something different...then it's their choice...not a recommendation or endorsement by us...I always recommend that they call the bullet and or powder manufacture and talk with the techs there...and get their input on a paticular load...most of them are glad to help and will give a selection of loads and powderes to try...

Mac