Author Topic: Conversions (Read 1567 times)

Rodeo Rustler · « **on:** March 16, 2005, 12:03:20 PM »

Hey Ya'll,

I think I have found a new interest...conversions! But I have a few questions...if you all would be so kind as to throw yur 2 cents in.

I found where Taylors sells R&D drop in cylinders where it is required to remove the barrel of a colt design pistol. Is there any other work involved or can you convert back and forth from BP to conversion?

Also, is this SASS legal?

I also saw Kirst Conversions where it is possible to grind a loading port into the gun, but what keeps the shell from falling out?

I have also heard of conversions where you have a loading gate...what kind of work on the gun does this entail?

Any help on the above would be appreciated...I think I might have to try this out!!

Rodeo Rustler

ribbonstone · « **Reply #1 on:** March 16, 2005, 02:26:40 PM »

The newer Kirsts (at least for the Colt-clones) is avaliable with a loading gate. Still have to grind that big recess in the recoil shield, but the loading gate works like any other, and nothing can fall out.

For the ones without the gate, the unfired rounds can fall out of that loading slot...but it isn't common. Usually load with 5 rounds, with an empty under the hammer. This puts the two rounds on the right side out of line with the loading slot so they can't fall out. When you cock it for your first shot, the last round in the cylinder does rotate past that slot..when the gun gets to full cock, it's past the slot and can't fall out. BUT it could fall out if you were pointing the gun up when you cocked it for the first shot.

After the first shot, the empty cases still rotate past that slot with each cylce...but they rotate past quickly, are expanded for firing , and come to rest on either side of the slot.

I'd still not cock the gun pointed up.

Nothing to stop you from putting the percussion cylinder back in...do it with mine. However, if you have ground that big slot for loading cartridges with the Kirst, it looks kind of goofy in percussion, but it sure is easy to cap.

Also notice that the price has increased in the last year. the pice of the gun + the price of the conversion sylinder comes t to a pretty penny...consider the "open top" offerings.

Cheyenne · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2005, 07:26:15 AM »

R&D Gun SHop also has a new conversion kit with a gated ring. The ring and gate are color cased to match the frame, and you also have to cut the port to load/unload. You can go back to percussion, and you'll have a heck of a capping port!

Best thing is the price....$ 205.00!

http://www.randdgunshop.com/catalog.php?category=Conversion%20Cylinder%20Kits

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2005, 09:25:55 AM »

Thanks for the advice guys...I'm thinking I'll go with the R&D gated conversion, probably because it seems the most historically true. If I'm thinking correctly you need to use hollow based bullets to shoot 38 long colt...do you know where I can get these online? What about dies, do they make 38 LC dies?

Thanks a million for the help

RR

ribbonstone · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2005, 01:28:24 PM »

Yes..they do make the Hollow based bullets...are .358" but with the hollow base, will bump up to fill the .375" barrel (well...most are running about .375, but some are a bit tighter). Know I've seen them for sale...will post back with at least one site.

Starline has the correctly stamped .38Colt cases...but trimmed .38specials work just as well. And for that matter, full lngth .38specail CASES (not loaded rounds) will fit...just that they are too long to for a seated bullet to fit in the cylinder. I tend to trim .38specail cases back until a completed round with RN seated bullet fits slight below flush with the cylinder.

Black Hills offeres loaded ammo if you'd prefer to start with a commercial offering as a basis for relaod comparison.

As the web site noted, can use full length .38special cases if you use the 148gr. flush sheated HBWC's in them...keep pressure low if you use smokeless loadings.

IF the timing on your gun is good, the basic swaged 148gr. HBWC (.358" ) will work well, but for black powder shooting it doesn't carry enough lube (or the right kind of lube)....no grooves, just that factoy dip-lube which isn't really BP friendly.

Getting them to shoot well with smokeless at a reasonable pressure is a race...want enough pressure to bump that hollow base up to fit the over sized .375" barrel, but not enough to strain the gun. Start low, and stop as soon as your groups are acceptable,

ribbonstone · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2005, 01:53:33 PM »

Buffalo Arms lists the HB round nose bullets cast of pure lead and lubed corectly for BP shooting..not cheap.

Various sourses for the cases (the Possibles Shop offeres them in smaller lots of 50 or 100 cases)....usually cheaper to get them from Starline, but shop arround (and do consider trimming .38special cases if you don't mind the wrong headstamp).

Have also loaded with heeled bullets...harder to find for sale but I do belive there is at least one supplier. Have a friend with an old mold who supplied me with a few...but loading heeled bullets isn't nearly as easy as loading with inside seated ("normal") bulelets and needs a specialized heeled bullet crimp die.

Never got accuracy as good as with hollow based bullets, so other than looking "old" isn't much to recommend the heeled bullet aproach.

Have fun.

Will52100 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2005, 06:30:16 PM »

Thanks for the link Cheyenne, boy thouse look a lot better than the Kirst and lower priced as well. You may have to do a little more work than just cutting the loading trough and droping the cylinder and breach plate in but man it looks good. The case coloring and roll engraving add a definate air of authenticity.

Also offered are barrel linners and ejectors and barrel packages to get the whole barrel fixed up and color case harding is also offered.

If you get the barrel linned you can use standard .357 bullets, but you still have to use 38long colt brass, the cylinder is too short for full sized 38 special loads. Low level 38 special loads are the same if I remember right as 38 long colt. Cept you've got more room for black powder in 38 special. For hollow base bullets I cast my own from pure lead in a 165 grain rapine mould. I used to buy them from River Junction, but the last time I ordered them they sent 145 grainers and they weren't lubed. I get good acuracy with the 165 grainers and 17 grains of 3F Swiss BP, good knock down power too.

Has any one tried one yet? How well made are they?

Looks like I'm gonna be working some over time to get one worked up.

Almost forgot, I use standard 38 special dies to reload 38 long colt with. I had to grind about 3/16" off the bottom of the expander die to load the cast bullets without shaving lead. I seem to remember Lee sell 38long colt dies as well.

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #7 on:** March 20, 2005, 01:38:21 PM »

Hey Guys

I found .358" 148 gr. HBWC at the National Bullet Company, $53.00 per 1000. They say they are "hard" cast. Will these bump up to .375 in my 51 Navy Conversion with smokeless loads without straining the frame of the gun? It sure would be nice because thats a whole lot cheaper than $27 per 100 at Buffalo Arms!!! Any input would be nice...thanks again.

RR

ribbonstone · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2005, 02:37:25 PM »

The Hornady or Speer swaged (soft) HBWC's are about $20 a 500 ($40 per 1000) and are soft enough to do the .358 to .375" trick at the pressure allowed in these conversions. Both cheaper and better perfomers.

Need to be reasonably soft as you can't boot them in the butt with high pressure to get them to slug up.

Some problems with lubrication and plack powder, but taht's not a problem with light smokeless loads.

IF the barrel/cylinder alignment isn't good, shooting that square faced bullet into an offcenter barrel isn't a great idea, but if the cylinder and barrel are in alignment, they shoot very well.

Flint · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2005, 04:39:50 PM »

I found it faster and way cooler running to use a round medium 12 inch file to rough out the loading port, and to then use the sanding drum and a Dremel tool to finish it up. The Dremel will get very hot as well as the frame if you use the drum to cut the entire depth of the port, to say nothing of how many sanding drums you will wear out.

I have two Kirsts and two R&D's now, and prefer the R&D. The Taylor
R&D is a different (earlier generation) unit which requires disassembling the revolver to load and unload.

unspellable · « **Reply #10 on:** March 21, 2005, 12:49:39 PM »

Looked at the R&D site and the original style conversion cylinders are conspicuous by their absence. What gives?

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #11 on:** March 21, 2005, 02:15:12 PM »

Well I went ahead and ordered the R&D gated cylinder, hope its the right choice. As far as ammo is concerned..can you shoot .358 HBWC swaged bullets in .38 LC brass? Or is the pressure too high with the shorter brass and longer bullet?

RR

Will52100 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 22, 2005, 07:22:37 PM »

Long as there soft enough to bump up into the rifling you'll be fine. Though the ones I used didn't have lube groves, just a cross hatch with a little greasy lube. Couldn't use them with black powder, they fouled heavily, but worked fine with smokless, just keep the pressure down to cowboy loads. Also make sure the cylinder indexes almost perfectly or you'll have acuracy problems with the flat nose of a wadcutter. My best acuracy has been with the pure lead 165 grain flat point round nose hollow base.

Looks kinda funny though with half the wad cutter exposed.

Soon as I get my new R&D and the money(had to pay taxes this time in :evil: , I'm going to send the barrel off and have it linned and an ejector put on. For the money to buy the parts to do it myself I can pretty well pay for the barrel work, not to mention the set-up is a pain and the tooling ain't cheap neither. I did add an ejector to a 61 navy Kirst and it's a lot faster and more convienent to eject the spent cases than with a cleaning rod.

The thing I like about the R&D set-up is that you can build the gun a piece at a time as you can afford it.

As though you can't tell, I can't wait to get mine!

Flint · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2005, 09:09:36 AM »

The 148 gr HBWC can be loaded in the 38 LC brass, it just takes a lower powder charge than the 38 Special case. I load currently 2.8gr of Titegroup in the 38 Special case. The same weight would be good for Bullseye or W231. I seat the bullet to crimp in the first small step above the top grease groove, as SASS rule prohibit flush or deeper bullet seating, so let 1/16 or so show above the case mouth.

I found the Hornady bullet to lead, so I use either the SPEER or the Remington bullet. The Remington bullet is a fine shooter, but it has an ugly black lube that builds up in the seating die, which has to be cleaned out at least after 100 rounds of reloading.

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2005, 08:04:13 AM »

Just wanted to give ya'll an update. I'm waiting to get my drilled and tapped frame so I can go out and shoot my new toy!! I'll post pics when finished...

Thanks for everybody's help.

RR

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2005, 12:31:12 PM »

Well...here it is. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out! I ordered some 38 LC dies, though, because I couldn't get my old 38 sp dies to work. Also, there is a gap between the front of the cylinder and the barrel big enough to slide about 4-5 pieces of paper through..is this bad? It shot a little high and to the right...not quite as good as when it was cap n ball. But anyways it looks good and thats all that counts in my book!!

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/album_pic.php?pic_id=838

RR

Will52100 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2005, 08:51:37 PM »

Looks good, I can't make out the photo too well on the monitar out here. Did you opt for the roll engraving? Did he cut the grove for the loading port.

You are shooting 148 grain HBWC? If so you might find a little improvement by going to the 165 grain flat point round nose bullet that River Junction used to sell. I think all they have right now is the 148 flat point round nose hollow base bullets. The 165 is what I get best acuracy with.

If the acuracy bothers you get the barrel linned to .357 and use a normal bullet. That's what I'm planning to do when I get back in a few days.

I don't think you'll have a problem with the cylinder gap, long as it's not excessive. I've noticed with black powder I have to open the cylinder gap up a good bit more than with smokeless to keep things cylinder drag down. 4 or 5 sheats of paper gap sounds about right, though it would be nice if you had a little more ajustment with your barrel wedge. I've got two Ubertis and they are like that as cap and balls, no ajustment, barrel wedge all the way in.

thanks for the update.

Rob P. · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2005, 02:51:58 AM »

Looks good, You should have alot of fun shooting that revolver.
Rob

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2005, 05:45:18 AM »

Yeah, I can't wait to go shoot 'er this weekend! One other thing though...the conversion ring and firing pin does not let the hammer all the way down when realeased slowly...so it does not "release" the bolt...so the next time you try to pull back the hammer the bolt does not drop. A little push or tap to the hammer releases the bolt, allowing it to drop the next time. When you pull the trigger and the hammer drops rapidly, however, there is no problem. Is this normal or should I do something about it? Thanks again.

RR

Rodeo Rustler · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2005, 06:39:41 AM »

Oh...I opted for the non engraved cylinder and I cut the groove with a air operated deburring tool.

RR

ribbonstone · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2005, 01:10:17 PM »

Good job...looks like a shooter.

The barrel cylinder gap: how deep is the wedge? Measure it with fired cases in place rather than just empty and you might finbd that the gap is less large than you think.

The bolt not releasing when the hammer is down only happens on unfired rounds...fire them, and the primer dent will allow the hammer to fall far enough to let teh bolt release.

But that doesn't help much when you decide not to shoot and want to lower the hammer...and then find the bolt ties it up as the hammer can't go down far enough. IF you modify the hammer (make the face a bit shorter) then you'll get missfires when switching back to the percussion cylinder.

Better is to work on the bolt...one leg is spring loaded to work on the hammer..has a "hook" shape that fits on the little inclided wedge stud on the hammer. A little bit of work on the indside radius of the bolt's "hook" will let it snap over that inclided wedge earlier...but if done too much, wont let the bolt withdraw at 1/2 cock to allow the cylinder to spin freely...so go slowly, check often.

Personally, would practice with some primed (but unloaded) cases....if your manipulations when lowering the hammer gently and fiddiling arround to get the bolt to pop up marks the primer deeply, then you might want to do something about it...some day, will run into a sensitive primer with loud results. If your manipulations don't deeply mark the primer, then just be sure to point it in a very safe direction when getting that bolt to pop up.

Will52100 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2005, 05:08:52 AM »

Just got back in and mine was waiting on me. I opted for the roll engraving and with the case hardened breach plate realy like the looks of it. One thing I like about it better than the Kirst is that the ratchet teeth are cut a little longer and the hand has to be filed down a little to time the cylinder where the Kirst you need a slightly longer hand.

My only posible complaint is that the roll engraving is a little on the light side, but I believe that's more to do with the tougher steel in the new cylinder and it does look a lot better than a plain non engraved cylinder.

I am very happy with it so far. Now to get the frame drilled and tapped and the barrel linned and an ejector added.