Author Topic: Bore butter troubleshooting.  (Read 6841 times)

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Offline savageT

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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2004, 03:58:28 AM »
I too use Ballistol and find absolutely no problems after the hot-water clean and rinse followed up by a Ballistol spray.

Jim
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Offline New Hampshire

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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2004, 11:58:46 AM »
Mike_h, by "Dry patch" system do you mean exactly that, a DRY patch?  Im curious because you have peeked my interest.  I noticed this past Sunday after a full day in soaking rain (even with a rubber band and plstic bag to seal the muzzel from the rain, I had surface rust forming (no pits thank heavens.)  I havent shot the load in there yet, just ran a poop load of BB down there on a patch.  The night before when I packed that load I did the same thing cuz I new it was going to rain, so I wanted to make sure.  So dang if I know why I got rust.  I think I will give the Ballistol a try and just run some 000 or 0000 wool to get out the surface rust then continue with the Ballistol.  Im curious, also, about what you say pertaining to your groupings.  When I shot offhand at 25 yds (using the BB system,) I was getting decent groups.  But the last time out I decided Id better see what she shot like at 50 yards.  Standing or benched I was having problems keeping my hits within 5" (which is why I decided to pass on a shot at 2 does that have been about 75 to 80 yards.)  I assume the Ballistol is also acceptable for hunting?  I mean as long as Im not drowning the barrel will this stuff leech into the powder over the season?
Thanks,
Brian M.
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Offline quickdtoo

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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2004, 12:08:09 PM »
Brian, use a bit of duct tape or electrical tape on the muzzle to seal it. Won't affect the shot or the barrel, but it will keep snow/rain or any moisture out as long as you don't bring it in to a warm environment from the cold. I've never had a problem with water getting past a patched round ball, but sealing the bore will keep all elements out for ya.
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Offline New Hampshire

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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2004, 06:01:06 AM »
Hmmm, that could be the answer.  It was a bone chilling cold day along with the rain, and I brought the gun right in to dry off and re-oil as it was as soaked as I (just put it this way, I used wax on most of the stock, but the inletting I used waterproofing spar varnish.  I tippied the gun over after all the metal parts were off and had a waterfall!)  I cant remember that I wiped down the bore too, so that could have been it.  And It wasnt till the next day I noticed the surface rust.  Oh well, lesson learned I guess.  Still interested in the Ballistol idea, though.
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Offline S.B.

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« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2004, 05:00:42 PM »
Yep, ditto your experience. I assumed it was something to do with the BoreButter?
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Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2004, 03:54:02 PM »
I was just reading over at Gunblast.com that this guy has a Sile muzzleloader that he has been doing a 14 year experiment on.
"This Sile carbine is the subject of an ongoing experiment. Back about 1990, if my memory serves me correctly, Ox-Yoke Products came out with a new muzzleloading lubricant called Wonder Lube 1000, and was quickly marketed also by Thompson/Center as Natural Lube 1000. The premise behind this product was that it contained no petroleum, which made the fouling much softer. Petroleum, when mixed with black powder fouling, makes for a hard residue that builds up in the bore, and must be removed frequently. The claim was that there was no need to clean between shots, and that the Natural Lube seasoned the bore, much like seasoning a cast iron skillet. Cooks know that a well-seasoned piece of cast iron will not rust, and even burned food rinses out easily. I had become accustomed to the ritual of daily cleaning my muzzleloader with soap and hot water, followed by a generous dousing of a rust preventative lubricant, as had most muzzleloading hunters. Every day during hunting season, after a long day of hunting, I would come home, fire the gun, and spend the better part of an hour cleaning the thing. I knew that the fur trappers and mountain men had neither the provision nor desire to daily empty their weapon and clean it. I also knew that leaving their rifles unloaded in bear and hostile Indian territory was not an option. They used their rifles daily, and animal fat was their only lubricant, yet there is no historical record of their weapons rusting beyond the point of being useful. During the first few years of using the Sile carbine, even after carefully treating it for storage in the off season, it would need a new nipple every year, and I would find that the fire channel had to be cleaned out, no matter how well I had doused the gun with rust preventative.  I decided to give the Natural Lube a try.  Now, after fourteen years of never cleaning that rifle, it will fire off each season just like a new gun. Allow me to clarify that: I have not cleaned that muzzleloader in fourteen years. I use it each season, leave it loaded all season, but never clean it. I use the Natural Lube on the REAL bullets, but that is it. One year I even left it loaded until the following season. After being loaded for almost a full year, it fired without a hitch. I do not suggest that anyone go fourteen years without cleaning any gun. I regularly clean all of my guns. I will however hunt with the carbine again this year, but it will not be cleaned. After hundreds of shots fired through it and fourteen years of field use, it still fires off perfectly each season. It is still an ongoing experiment. The Natural Lube 1000 works, and works well."

Despite the web blurbs to the contary I have a T/C Renegade barrel that has had NOTHING but Bore Butter or hot water down the barrel for several decades. Now I understand that Natural Lube 1000 is made of mutton tallow and bee's wax and as such probably does have some "natural" salt from the sheep's fat. I have just picked up a lightly used .54 New Englander. I plan to scald and scrub the barrel with Windex to get it down to the steel. After several hours reading the other night prompted by this thread I plan to make up a batch of Riddle of Steel's magic bore lube.
3 parts Crisco
1 part bee's wax
With it I will begin conditioning my barrel and lubing pillow ticking patches. I know this lube will have no salt or acids. If I get rust it will be my fault, not the lube. In the old days when we had to build or muzzle stuffers from kits we all used Crisco. I don't seem to remember all these fouling and rust issues back them. However in hot weather the Crisco would melt off of our patches. The bee's wax will solve that though.
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

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Offline R J Talley

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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2004, 04:18:55 PM »
Odd isn't it, all the crap about rust and such. I clean my guns. I use various lubes, including crisco. I added bee's wax to both crisco and lard to try and stiffin it up for SoCal summer heat. Shoot, I even tried adding caster oil. All worked fine. I still have to wipe the bore after 3 or four shots otherwise the fouling makes loading difficult. I might get rust if I didn't clean the gun after shooting it. I don't know. I do know that Bore Butter isn't magic, rust will come if the bore gets damp and remains uncleaned. So, I don't know, maybe it's all of the newbies coming into the sport from the smokeless ranks. Could be all of the rust fuss comes from their wishing that BP behaved like smokeless come clean up time. I've been doing BP since 1974 so I think I may know a thing or two about it. Make no mistake, with BP cleaner is better.
R J Talley
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Offline roundball

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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2004, 03:45:06 AM »
I have a houseful of muzzleloaders, many of which I shoot year round on the weekends, then hunting season, etc.

All I've ever used since I started in the late 80's is bore butter...the bores are still like mirrors today, as accurate as when I bought them, and I shoot 40 shot range sessions on Saturdays without ever wiping between shots.

However...I was never willing to trust the "seasoning" idea...so my regimen always includes a 30 minute thorough cleaning with steaming hot soapy water & bore brush, a hot water rinse, ensure the bore is 100% bone dry, then heavily coat every square inch of the bore with Natural Lube...next outing, I dry patch out any excess lube and shoot till I'm tired of shooting.
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(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline Dave K

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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2004, 05:19:51 AM »
Roundball has it right. Buy into the "seasoning" idea and you will have problems. Use it as a lube and you will not.

Offline riddleofsteel

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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2004, 06:16:37 AM »
I have never given up on cleaning barrels. I guess it runs contary to my boyhood training. When we came in from hunting or shooting you cleaned your gun first, before eating or anything else and you NEVER stored a uncleaned firearm. My muzzleloaders are always cleaned with hot water and swabbed until clean. The Bore Butter is a preservative and lube. I guess it does conditon the barrel as it fills the pores in the metal and prevents tarry fouling from bonding to the metal. If Bore Butter is coating the inside of your barrel before you shoot your barrel is in effect pre-conditioned. This helps prevent fouling and makes it easier to swab out with just a patch.
I probably would have heart failure if I had to leave my T/C muzzleloader for 14 years with no cleaning. I am a boiling water and patch man myself.
...for him there was always the discipline of steel.

They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night.
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Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2004, 07:50:38 AM »
Quote
I am a boiling water and patch man myself.


I was too from the time I got my first ml gun in '75 till just a couple years ago.  That was the method advised in the TC owners manual and I think it still is.

I still clean with water but now have gone to warm but not so hot that I can't immerse my hand into it without discomfort.  It works as good as the hot water did with the only disadvantage being that the heat of the barrel after the Hot water method caused the barrel to dry up and it also sort of melted the 1000 + lube off the patch and onto the bore.  Nowadays I wipe the bore dry and then use a bit of alcohol to dry out any last bits of water.  Like I said, it cleans just as well as the hot water and no more burned hands, etc :grin:

Like many shooters here I used crisco as my only lube for many years until the 1000+ came out.  I don't know why it gets bashed so often, it works great.  Here's something I noticed and I'll bet many others have noticed this too;  When I switched from crisco to bore butter I noticed the water in my cleaning bucket did not get nearly as black as it does with crisco for a lube.  Even with the exact same wiping regimen, the water used to clean a crisco lubed shooting session got much much blacker than when bore butter was used.  At first I thought maybe I wasn't getting all the fouling out and that was the reason for cleaner water.  The bore was perfectly clean though so I concluded that shooting with 1000+ was resulting in much less fouling left behind in the bore.

These days I often use the dry patch and homemade moosemilk system for target shooting but plan to go back to 1000+ for field use just because it's easier to clean up after.

Offline roundball

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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2004, 02:52:00 PM »
Quote from: Longcruise

I don't know why it gets bashed so often, it works great.


The only conclusion is an error in their method...obviously Natural Lube 1000 as a product is an excellent one, and it's been used successfully by thousands (tens of thousands?) of ML enthusasists for I don't know how many years...I've used it since I started in the late 80's, so that's 15 years right there.

Judging from your post, you know there are three steps that have to be taken with the bore after every use to prevent rust and buildup:
1) Get it 100% clean;
2) Get it 100% bone dry;
3) Get it 100% completely coated with lube;

If any of those steps aren't completed 100%, a problem will follow...the disappointment is that some people try it once, have a problem, and then start bashing the product instead of understanding what's taking place.

I will say this...in this day and age we're all very busy people and we've come to expect that most anything we need to know about a product can be included on the back of a blister-pac, and to a great degree that's good enough, but unfortunately that's not always the case with things like this.  I think vendors should do a better job of advertising / explaining the cleaning & lubing procedures for muzzleloaders like we're discussing right now.

For example, TC makes what they call "Prelubed Cleaning & Seasoning" patches, and an innocent buyer could conclude that all they have to do is run one of these "Cleaning & Seasoning" patches down the bore and it's protected...and of course that's not the case at all.

As you know, to protect a bore with bore butter, larger quantities are needed than what's in those almost dry-to-the-touch patches...needs to be spread heavily on patches to really plaster it up and down all the bore's surfaces so no air can get to them...it's not a product problem, it's a process problem...100%, 100% and 100%...then it can't rust...period.
And for me, the main benefit of it all is being able to shoot as much as I want without wiping between shots
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2004, 02:48:08 AM »
Quote
And for me, the main benefit of it all is being able to shoot as much as I want without wiping between shots


I wish I could reliably get that effect!

I think there can be days of such low humidity that no lube will keep the fouling soft and allow repeated shots without wiping.  I see you are in NC and wonder if your higher humidity might contribute to that success.  On dry days here in CO the fouling seems to harden up and make it difficult to load without wiping.  OTOH I once had a day of shooting where wiping was not necessary with the weather humid and occasionally drizzling.  I've seen 30% humidity mentioned as a break point.

Offline roundball

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« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2004, 11:58:53 AM »
Except during October & November hunting season, I shoot year round almost every Saturday morning.

The winter temps range from the 20's with winter humidity so low there's static discharge from walking across a room, and BP residue shows red spots in it...through summer temps in the high 90's with matching humidity, and the BP residue turns to soup immediately...doesn't matter.

Had the same results using bore butter with Pyrodex in percussions as I do now using it with Goex in flintlocks.

If I had to go through what I hear a lot of people go through just to shoot a few dozen shots at the range, I'm not sure I'd continue the sport...at a minimum it would be a lot less enjoyable to me
"Flintlocks.......The Real Deal"
(Claims that 1:48" twists won't shoot PRBs accurately are old wives tales!!)

Offline Longcruise

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« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2004, 02:58:18 PM »
Quote
If I had to go through what I hear a lot of people go through just to shoot a few dozen shots at the range, I'm not sure I'd continue the sport...at a minimum it would be a lot less enjoyable to me


Likewise!  That seems to be an in-liner affliction or at the least a newbie problem.  I saw guys sighting in their inlin gun a couple years ago and after a few shots they commented something to the effect *dang it's too dirty to load and we aren't sighted in yet.  Guess we'll have to go home and clean it and come back*  I said nothing as I had earlier offered some minor suggestion and found them most unreceptive! :-)

Offline williek

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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2005, 10:39:11 AM »
Hello to all those I have been reading for the past four days.
I am pushing 70 years old- hard!
I have been shooting since about age six or seven.  Grew up on the farm in Minnesota, and had a wonderful father who loved to hunt and shoot.
I have reloaded rifle, handgun and shotgun since the early 60's.
I have shot informal target, formal target, benchrest, trap and formal qualification pistol for law enforcement training.
While walking through a hardware store in Hayward, Wis. in late Dec 1975 I ran across a .45 cal CVA black powder rifle kit that the owner was trying to dump before tax inventory.  Good price and I enjoy working with my hands so I bought and built it.  Shot it off and on for about 20 years. Knew nothing about what I was trying to do, knew noone who did and was not impressed.
Five years ago I bought a .54 Cabalas' Hawkins Caplock to hunt elk in Colo. My buddy dropped with a heart attack ten minutes into the season and that was the end of the trip.
I have been shooting a litle the last two years (5 or 6 shots, clean it, and put it away)
I have read alot about shooting BP over the last 20 years but most of it is about the hunting trip, how hugh the animal was, and what a great shot they made.  Very little about what you need to do to get a rifle to shoot well.

I have learned more in the last four days reading your posts than I did in the twenty some years prior to this time.  I am very greatful for having found this escellent site.  I am looking forward to shooting more extensively this summer and in the next few days
Sorry for being so long winded but I wanted you to know where I am coming from, my past experience, and where I hope to go.
I have always cleaned my BP rifles with boiling soapy water, brush and mop, turn them upside down and let the heat from the barrel dry them.  Then follow up with lots of gun oil! Now I find using oil with BP is a really stupid thing to do.
I have a knack for doing stupid things.  Some,of the time it's ignorance, most of the time it's just plain poor judgement.  Does that ring a bell with anyone?
Once again, thanks for all those excellent posts.  It seems as if in BP, as in most areas of life, each walks a different path to reach their goal. Even in barrel lubricants.
WillieK

Offline New Hampshire

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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2005, 11:49:09 AM »
Hello williek!  :D
Welcome to the forum.  I have been greatful for the folks here as well.  They have helped me muddle through some of theproblems Ive had, and they are great for all kinds of info!
Just as a note, Im getting ready to try a new patch/lube combo myself.  Im switching over to a Ballistol patch and ball.  So far the Ballistol is showing promise, but Ill get some serious shooting done and post my results when they get done.
Brian M.
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Offline KING

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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2005, 03:22:37 PM »
:D      Glad to have you aboard!!!!!  Around here you cant be shy about asking questions about anything that you might want to know.  Believe me..........there will be someone here that will either have the answer,make up an answer,or look one up for you.  Mot will respond from practicle experiance and hopefully you can apply that to what it is that you are attempting to do.  Good luck and again.......dont be shy around here...............the rest of the crew sure are not.............stay safe........King
THE ONLY FEMALE THAT I TRUST IS A LABRADOR.......AND SHE DONT SNOORE,AND DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY COOKING...THE ONLY GODS THAT EXIST ARE THOSE THAT HAVE ONE IN THE CHAMBER,AND 19 IN THE MAG.......

Offline 1860

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« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2005, 11:54:45 PM »
Very good thread guys.

Bore butter has been bashed around on the net over the last few years and I never understood it.  As long as the gun is clean befor you use it, it works great.  Besides ML'rs, I also shoot BP in  cartridge(pistol and rifle) and cap n ball, I use it in the bores of all of them with no trouble.

For those that have trouble with it being too loose on warm days and stiff on cold ones, here is what I do.  Basically I add bees wax to a tube for summer use and crisco(and/or Olive Oil) to a tube for winter use.  Squirt out a good amount to make room, nuke up some beewax in a plastic container, also nuke the tube (stand it up in the Microwave WITH THE CAP OFF).  Pour in the bees wax, put the cap on, and squish it around some to mix it up.  Sounds like work but it's really easy and I find these tubes very handy at the range, I've saved the emptys and refilled them with the part I squirted out in the beginning.  It doesn't take much bees wax to make it stiff in the summer but it takes alot of crisco to keep it loose in the winter.  It still works great either way.

1860

Offline 1860

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« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2005, 11:57:33 PM »
Very good thread guys.

Bore butter has been bashed around on the net over the last few years and I never understood it.  As long as the gun is clean befor you use it, it works great.  Besides ML'rs, I also shoot BP in  cartridge(pistol and rifle) and cap n ball, I use it in the bores of all of them with no trouble.

For those that have trouble with it being too loose on warm days and stiff on cold ones, here is what I do.  Basically I add bees wax to a tube for summer use and crisco(and/or Olive Oil) to a tube for winter use.  Squirt out a good amount to make room, nuke up some beewax in a plastic container, also nuke the tube (stand it up in the Microwave WITH THE CAP OFF).  Pour in the bees wax, put the cap on, and squish it around some to mix it up.  Sounds like work but it's really easy and I find these tubes very handy at the range, I've saved the emptys and refilled them with the part I squirted out in the beginning.  It doesn't take much bees wax to make it stiff in the summer but it takes alot of crisco to keep it loose in the winter.  It still works great either way.

1860