Author Topic: problem with conversion cylinder locking gun up?  (Read 945 times)

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Offline Will52100

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problem with conversion cylinder locking gun up?
« on: April 10, 2005, 07:56:05 PM »
I recently aquired a R&D conversion cylinder and breachplate for my 51 navy and am overall very happy with it.

I haven't got it mounted yet and was debating on which gun to mount it.  I checked it with one that had been converted with a Kirst and the breach plate linned up perfectly with the loading port.  That's when I had the problem.  The cylinder won't index with drawing the hammer back, the thing locks up.  I tried the Kirst cylinder and it locks up now too.  It worked just a minit ago!  By locking up I mean the hand will not index the cylinder unless I turn the cylinder by hand to nearly half cock, then the hammer will finish the cylinder rotation to full cock and lock the cylinder properly.  It works fine in an unconverted 51' navy.  The hand is a lot longer for the Kirst, but that shouldn't affect the kirst cylinder being put back in the same gun!?

I haven't had time to fool with it, think a new hand will work or shorting the old hand to time the cylinder?

any ideas?

Thanks
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Offline Singing Bear

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problem with conversion cylinder locking gu
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 10:24:19 AM »
Bad hand spring?  I've noticed this problem when the hand springs are weak or ready to break.  No signs indicating any problem.  Gun works fine one minute and jams the next.   Take it out and it looks fine...until you try to open the spring up or check the tension.  Just falls right off.  :?
Singing Bear

Offline ribbonstone

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problem with conversion cylinder locking gu
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 12:40:56 PM »
First, check to see the cylinder/barrel fit...can have the barrel so far back (but driving the weddge in) that it binds the cylinder.  Chances are, as it worked together before, that's the problem now.

Offline Will52100

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problem with conversion cylinder locking gu
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 05:35:03 PM »
Still not sure what the problem was, but by shorting the hand to fit the new cylinder it works fine now.  Spring is good also.  What wierded me out is that it was the proper length for the Kirst, and worked for it then quit.  Only guess is it got a bur on the hand from the R&D cylinder which needs a shorter hand?  What ever it now works like it suposed to.

The barrel was off for most of the test fitting, and with the barrel wedge all the way in it still had slack so that's not it.

I'm at a loss, but long as it works I'm happy.
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Offline Flint

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lockup
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 05:40:26 PM »
I had the same problem, and the cause was the hard (4150) steel sharp leading edge of the cylinder's rachet digging into the top of the very soft Italian hand (pawl).  If you disassemble the gun and get the hand out so you can hold it in your fingers, then mount the cylinder on the frame backwards so you can see what's going on, align the chambers to the 6/12 o'clock position and hold the hand in the start position of the lower rachet tooth, (on the left side against the cylinder pin as you see it now) you may find as I did that the ratchet corner is picking up the hand at it's very edge, and either dropping over the edge to the inside (right), or as mine did, actually dug a small groove in the top right edge of the pawl's top surface, which is enough to lock it up.

I took an Arkansas stone and broke those 6 rachet corners a bit to make  it less of a cutting tool.  Then I lowered the top surface of the hand to the bottom of  the groove made by the rachet, and checking with the reversed cylinder and holding the hand in its pickup position, got it so the rachet picks up enough outboard (toward the center of the hand's top surface) so it would slide sideways rather than dig in.  It doesn't take much, but it also didn't take much to cause the problem.You can also check the relationship of the hand and rachet at the top of the sroke, and you will see that the side corner of the pawl is against the side of the upper rachet tooth and might need a very small chamfer to set the cylinder aligned straight up.  It's a tricky bit of geometry, and it's easy to remove too much metal.

The main cause is the very soft steel Uberti and Pietta are using to make internal parts.  A new hand made from better, harder steel is the real answer.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Flint

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lockup 2
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 05:44:09 PM »
The Kirst, I have found is made short in the star rotation, and will not always lock the bolt before the trigger sear drops into the full cock notch.  The R&D seems to be made a bit closer, the rachet star is rotated a bit CCW compared to the Kirst.  But when they don't want to work, the Kirst cylinder rachet is just as sharp and hard a cutting tool as the R&D.
Flint, SASS 976, NRA Life

Offline Will52100

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problem with conversion cylinder locking gu
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 06:23:47 PM »
Thanks Flint, that may be the cause and if I have any more trouble I'll stone the sharp edges a little.

I have been thinking about using Kasenit to case harden the surface of the hand to improve lifespan.  I went through several hands with the Kirst due to wear, it would get to where I would have to manualy rotate the cylinder to properly lock up.
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