Author Topic: Big Martini action  (Read 1990 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« on: March 25, 2005, 06:49:10 AM »
I found a Martini action today. It has  1958 or stamped in three places ,probably serial no.#. I don't know what it is about this thing, the workmanship I guess, but it's screaming China when I look at it. The barrel threads look to be a little over 1" in dia. 14 tpi.  It has short lever. anybody got a clue what about it or where I might find info.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2005, 08:48:45 AM »
Best way to get your Martini identified is to post pictures.  Martini's should have a serial number on the receiver face or bottom edge of the receiver frame. Serial number are sometimes also found on the major pars.

The Martini Henry pattern barrel tenon should be 1"-14 TPI.  Greener is 1.075"-14

Mk Ito Mk III Pattern


MK IV MH Pattern


Greener Pattern


Commercial action


Francotte Pattern, large and small


The Military Martini's are well marked  and should be fairly easy to identify.  There were commercial versions of the military guns called Volunteer patterns. They were not always marked or may have what appear to be proof marks that are actually makers stamps.


Greener made the Egyptian Guard guns and they are often seen on the market as actions.

Commercial makers also made patterns very similar to the Greener Pattern

The Francotte  guns are most familiar int he small martini action that we know as the cadet.  There are a lot more different models Francotte Martinis than the cadet, the cadet a BSA 4B is the most familiar in the U.S.  The Francotte was also made in a large action

Most Martini's are English and Belgium made.   But they were also made Germany, U.S.  and Sweden.

There is also the Khyber Pass models. They are made, rather crudley at times in the Afghanistan Pakistan border region.  The metallurgy is questionable but the design of the Martin is sufficiently strong that you are not likely to get hurt if one blows.

So post us some pictures of your action and any marks it might have and we will see if we can figure out what you have.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2005, 09:25:45 AM »
Thanks DoubleD, I think the barrel threads did it. It is a little larger than 1" and it is 14 tpi. Must be Greener. Are these actions very good? Would it make a good 45/70? This one has extractor for small rimmed case, A 308 win. case will just fit, a 307 winchester would be just right.

(EDIT) just took it apart, the breech block has the numbers 888 on it in two places. The other parts has some kind of scribble that I can't make  out.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2005, 10:12:32 AM »
Which one of the actions does yours look like?  Are there any markings on the sides?

If this is a Khyber pass model, they usually aren't worth the time.

Sounds like a .303 Extractor.  What  is the diameter of the firing pin tip?  .065 to .070 is smokeless powder, .090 is black powder.   If it is the blackpowder pin it will need to be reduced and the breech block reduced.

The Martini action is an extremely strong action and 45/70 is the norm for  reconstruction in the U.S.  I have been looking for an action so i could put a 375 Flanged Magnum NE on it.

There are some tricks to working on these actions and most of what has been written in the U.S. about gunsmithing them is wrong.  Starting with disassembly.  If your action is a Martini Henry drive the block Hinge pin out, open the action and close it, the breech block should pop out.  In the case of the Greener you will need to also remove the extractor pivot pin and let the front of the trigger guard drop down, then open the action and the block will pop out.

There is a really good website dedicated to the Martini Henry at www.martinihenry.com.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2005, 10:18:47 AM »
I just took it apart and the breech block has the numbers 888 on it in two places. does this tell you anything. the fireing pin is smokeless. It looks more like the top photo.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2005, 01:00:12 PM »
Numbers won't mean much.  It's the other markings that tell the tale.

Is there  a bar dovetailed into the breech face?

If you  have no markings on the side of the action it most likely is just a commercial action.  If it looks like the first one and it is smokeless size firing pin it most likely is for .303.  That first action for a .303 Martini Enfield Artillery Carbine. There are some subtle differences that the casual observer might not notice and are meaningful only to a collector.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2005, 01:43:20 PM »
DoubleD, the finish on mine looks like it was belt sanded. It has plenty markings, all allike.Wish I had a digital camera. I'll try to describe the markings.  It looks like a three toed chicken track, under that is a crown, under that is a staight line, under it looks like the outline of a star with two legs missing. It has the chicken track on one screw head and on the cocking indicator , and several other places with the crown. looks alot like the sold out of goverment symbols. This thing looks better made on the inside than out.
It has no dovetail on the breech face.

Offline Brithunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2538
Big Martini action
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2005, 10:34:52 PM »
Hi All,

    That is not a "chicken track"  :roll:  it's the "Broad Arrow" acceptance marking of the War Department later known as the Ministry of Defence (MOD) the star could be two of these butted together which is the sale mark which mens it was legally sold out of Government ownership. Sounds like it could be a Normal British services Martini, but which cartridge is the question.

      With the small extractor is could be 303, however the breechblock is usually marked if it has a 303 block which were steel. The earlier 577/450 blocks were iron and could not stand the higher pressures of the 303 round and started to set back in the breechface, so a hardened stell insert was dovetailed into te breechface to prevent this on the converted rifles. hop that helps.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2005, 02:57:39 AM »
The reason the plate was inserted was to reduce the diameter of the firing pin hole to utilize the smaller diameter striker (firing pin) required for smokeless powder.  MH breech blocks were always steel and not iron.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2005, 09:51:26 AM »
Finally got photos of the Martini, hope they help to identify it.




Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2005, 01:35:02 PM »
Very interesting.  It is MK III style action.  Apears to have been refinish.  Has British broad arrow markings where they don't normally appear.  

Sure would like to see some close ups of the markings.  that faint circular marking ohthe right side is very interesting.

It would make a nice 45/70.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2005, 01:48:13 PM »
DoubleD, I couldn't make out the circular marking holding it in my hand, it has been sanded almost completly away. I noticed the trigger guard and the location of the trigger screw and area around it looks just like the Greener photo you posted and i've seen many other greener photos on the net and it looks like them also. It has, like I said before the larger Greener barrel thread. It must be Greener at least I hope so and not Khyber Pass.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2005, 04:00:00 PM »
I won't say it's not a Greener, but most Greeners I have seen are Hump back.

It's a MKIII pattern, but I don't  don't know who made it. Can you post close ups on the Markings?

The markings on the breech block are  British Black powder proof and  British broad arrow.

Can you get me shot straight in the front shot so i can see the extractor and brecch block face.


Ive got some ideas but need to see those marks.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2005, 03:25:18 AM »
I'll try to get my sister in law to take some more photos in a few days. I'll try to draw the markings in the mean time and scan them and try to post them as a photo.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2005, 10:27:17 AM »
Double D , Here is the markings that is all over this action, hope they help.



Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2005, 06:49:50 PM »
If you have a scanner just lay the action down on the scanner and scan the action in.  Send me a copy of the action pictuer full size in a PM.  I will be able to pull the full size picture out of the PM and manipulate the pictures andfigure out what you have.

Offline Brithunter

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2538
Big Martini action
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2005, 04:17:36 AM »
Hi All,

     Didn't Steyr make some Martinis for the Boers and didn't they use a round mark with three initials inside it, OWS or something. Hmm can't find the booksa s i am packingup just now to move.

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2005, 06:36:28 PM »


Here's a Styer receiver for sale on gunbroker and I'll bet that is the large mark that was on the side of yours.  Tthe broad arrow marks don't belong on that action   My guess and a guess it is, is that this a parts action ands not a complet e original.  Should work up into a nice 45/70.

I still would like to see the side scans of the action body markings.

Offline JCP

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 178
Big Martini action
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2005, 05:47:29 AM »
DD, i'll bet you are right. I'll probably make my 16 yr. old son a 45/70. It shoul be safe with black powder level loads.  Thanks for the help

Jack

Offline Double D

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12609
  • SAMCC cannon by Brooks-USA
    • South African Miniature Cannon Club
Big Martini action
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2005, 06:23:55 AM »
It will be safe with smokeless load also.  The Martin action is a very strong action, nearly as strong as the Farquharson.