lead bullets in the 45 auto...

[myronman3]

just wondering who here shoots lead through their 45's.   sent off for a mold for a 230 grain truncated cone.

[Graycg]

Got about 300,000 rounds of 200 grain Lead semi-wadcutters through 4 well worn bulleyes frames that my father and I shot over the years.  Most of the bullets were Saeco #68s or a copy of that bullet that Veral Smith made up for us.  Lead bullets will do all you ever need in a 45.

regards,
 graycg

[Buford]

Graycg said about all there is to say - they work well and are accurate. Cost factor is great, you will wonder what took you so long to discover it!

[ButlerFord45]

Cast another 500 today, boxed up the thousand I loaded up last week, and will probably cast another 500 tonight so I can get them loaded this week.  At less than 4¢ apiece for a complete cartridge, I can almost afford to shoot all I want.  Good accuracy, good reliability, equal ummph as jacketed and with the right lube, no leading.  I can't understand why everyone isn't on to this little secret!  :wink:

[BamBams]

That's ALL I shoot through my .45s.  I cast two different types of 200g SWCs.  One is for target, and the the other is for practice.  By shooting lead, my barrels still look brand new after many thousands of rounds.

[Dusty Miller]

And here I was starting to believe that moderately worn barrels were more accurate!

[BamBams]

Technically speaking that could be true in some cases with longer rifle barrels as long range accuracy is required.  If I'm guessing correctly, you are probably referring to the "lapping effect" -- which some rifle marksmen attempt to expedite these days by fire, or hand, lapping their barrels.

With that process, unless the barrel rifling/dimensions are cursed by poor manufacturing, it doesn't do anything more than shorten barrel life.  If it were true that a moderately worn pistol barrel shot better, that would indicate that something was very wrong with that barrel to begin with.  In my shameless opinion, if a rifle shoots well, there is no good reason on earth to deliberately impart more wear on the rifling.  

The quality of the steel, the thickness of the barrel, the precision of the muzzle crown, and the quality of the bedding affect the accuracy of a rifle far far more than polishing the bore with some lapping compound - defective bores being the exception.  A cheapo rifle barrel looks like an out of control soda straw when viewed in slow motion.  A 1911 barrel looks like a fancy cannon because that's exactly what it is - kinda.  There is a big difference in the dynamics and factors needed to achieve the accuracy potential in rifles and pistols.

In this life, what we read, and what our experiences teach us, often conflict. My grandma always said, "Experience is the best teacher." and she had a track record of always being right!  In the context of a 4, 5 or 6 inch 1911 barrel with extremely minor tolerance variations, one would never notice the difference of such "moderate" wear at normal pistol shooting distances.  Good 1911 barrels will outshoot 99.99 percent of shooters.

Along those same lines, I used to be anal retentive enough to actually slug 1911 barrels - back when I read more than I shot (laugh).  I bet I've slugged about 20 of them -- various makes and models. One of the benefits of casting lead bullets is the ability to oversize the bullets slightly to acheive a proper obturation to the barrel rifling.  Over the years, and in the context of 1911 barrels, I've found that these measurements are merely "splitting hairs" and are pretty much a complete waste of my time.

Now I just size to ".452 and I'm happy.  Interestingly, Lyman suggests sizing to ".451.  It would appear that some engineer mixed Prozac with his micrometer, but hey, even ".451 works fine with soft lead.  I used to use the H&G #68 type bullet also, but I've switched over to the Lyman 452460 type because it's design has the promise of a very slight accuracy gain over the #68 without going to a full SWC.  It does require twice the amount of bullet lube, but with about 20lbs of beeswax sitting over here, I've got no reason to care about that.

Anyway, at 850fps with a soft lead 200g bullet, there is always enough obturation.  New casters frequently confuse the effects of high velocity rifle shooting with low velocity pistol shooting, but there is quite a difference.  With rifle shooting, there are many more considerations when casting.  With slow velocity 1911s:  Keep the lead soft (ex: unhardened wheel weight lead) and size to ".452.

I'd venture to say that cleaning your barrel with a bronze brush a few hundred strokes would yield the exact same benefits as the "moderate wear" effect you are thinking about without actually wearing the barrel.

Keeping a 1911 barrel clean will help you out some.  I used to use the "dirty powders" with my extra dirty bullet lube.  I could definitely notice my groups open up after a few hundred rounds.  I still use my "extra dirty" bullet lube (50/50 alox and beeswax) but I've switched to a much cleaner powder these days.   Before I switched, I'd just run a bore snake through the barrel between courses of fire.  I love that bore snake!

Having a smooth, consistent bore is a good thing.  Wearing down the rifling is not a good thing.  When people start shooting moly coated bullets through a 1911, I will be done with the Internet.   :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

[Mikey]

Shootin' lead is prolly better than spending the $ for overpriced jacketed stuff that is supposed to expand properly and save your life.  I've shot thousnads of cast and will continue to do so.  I am still looking for that furtive 45 slug for the Schofield revolver that someone once posted a picture of in Guns and Ammo, I think.  Best looking 230 gn bullet for the 45 I've ever seen, and if she fucntions through the auto pistol I'm not buying any more jacketed stuff.  JMHO, unbiased of course.  Mikey.

[AZ223]

You guys have answered the question I didn't get around to asking on this forum. I've had people tell me I shouldn't shoot cast lead bullets through my P12, but they could never tell me why. Sounds like lead-fouling, saving money and less barrel wear are the biggest problems.

Thanks!  :-)

[BamBams]

I know that some people are surprised to learn just how "little" lead fouling occurs in a .45ACP.  I've shot well over 1400 rounds before a cleaning and there was so little fouling in the barrel that it isn't even worth mentioning.  So why did I?  HAHAHAHAHA

[YoungButOldSchool]

my dad taught me how to reload a couple years ago and I've put a few thousand lead slugs through my 1911 so far with no problems but,  my buddy refuses to shoot cast-lead in his Kimber.  I keep telling him that if you stay under 1,000 ft/sec its fine, but he won't listen, probably because he payed a lot for his 1911.  Can someone please give me more info that might convince him that he's wasting his money on factory ammo.  Is there any reason, other than being picky, to shoot strictly jacketed?

[Leadlum]

I shoot 230gr RN lead from my RCBS mold, and seems to work good. Just got my new gun last week, and already got 150rds of cast through it. I would have shot more, but had to shoot up 200rds of jacketed to get some brass.

[Redhawk1]

I shoot a lot of  230gr RN lead in my 1911. Works great.  

[Flash]

Lead is where it's at, regardless of the handgun. I cast lead bullets for everything above 22 caliber and wouldn't have it otherwise. I am eyeing the Kimber as my next 1911 and you can bet she'll be fed cast lead slugs.

[myronman3]

since i started this thread i have cast and shot a truckload of cast bullets through my kimber.  man, my gun loves them.  and like bambams said, hardly any lead fouling.  

he won't listen, probably because he payed a lot for his 1911. Can someone please give me more info that might convince him that he's wasting his money on factory ammo.

 you can lead a horse to water...

Is there any reason, other than being picky, to shoot strictly jacketed?

only two i can think of:   1.  my friend has a springer v16.  the ports left some nasty damage in his barrel which he found after slugging the bore.  leading is heavy in his gun as a result.   2.  when shooting high velocity rifle rounds;  less screwing around.

[Redhawk1]

I find the lead bullets to be very accurate.  

[Vern Humphrey]

A wise man once said, "Cast bullets and .45s go together like ham and eggs."  Saying that proved how wise he was.

I shoot 230-grain round nosed bullets (Lee TL 452-230-2R) lubed with liquid Alox.  I have the 6-cavity mould, and will typically cast up about a thousand bullets at a session.  

With 5.0 grains of Bullseye, this matches the 230-grain Hydra Shok that is my carry load (in my pistol, at least.)  I've probably shot 30-40K rounds of this load in my present carry gun, a Kimber Custom Classic, and as much or more in my M1927 Argentine.

I have also broken down and bought ready-cast bullets out of laziness from time to time.

[volshooter]

I shoot 185gr. SWC (soft cast) over a low dose of Bullseye. Accuracy is great and leading has never been a problem. I've been shooting at least a 100 a week for 15+ years in the same barrel. It still shoots very good. I like this light load for paper and rats. I don't remember the fps but it is enough to cycle a full size 1911. Rolling my own .45's is the only way I could afford to feed my habit.
Rick

[Louis Farrugia]

HI volshooter
I have a springfield whit(peters stahl)polygonal match barrel I use 185 swc
in 2to1 lino mix,size and lube to 452 on 5.4gr unique i shoot about 200 a week and no leading
 LOUIS
 MALTA EUROPE

I shoot 185gr. SWC (soft cast) over a low dose of Bullseye. Accuracy is great and leading has never been a problem. I've been shooting at least a 100 a week for 15+ years in the same barrel. It still shoots very good. I like this light load for paper and rats. I don't remember the fps but it is enough to cycle a full size 1911. Rolling my own .45's is the only way I could afford to feed my habit.
Rick

[Vern Humphrey]

One problem with commercially cast bullets is that they're usually much too hard.  The .45 ACP is a low pressure -- low velocity round.  It performs much better with softer bullets.

A hard bullet will often not upset and completely fill the grooves.  This allows gas to by-pass the bullet, and the result is some leading from gas cutting of the bullet.

[Vern Humphrey]

I shoot about 5,000 .45 rounds a year -- almost all cast.  I also shoot about the same in .38 special.  In .38 Special, I like swaged hollowbased wadcutters.  And I don't have a problem with leading there.

When I shoot softer, but well-lubricated bullets in .45 ACP, I don't have leading either.

[35 nut]

Over at the aimoo cast boolit site they are getting ready to do a custom 6 cavity Lee order. It looks like a good design, should have a little smack factor.

If interested look in the Group buys room.

keep on shooten

[Vern Humphrey]

Over at the aimoo cast boolit site they are getting ready to do a custom 6 cavity Lee order. It looks like a good design, should have a little smack factor.

If interested look in the Group buys room.

keep on shooten

I have a pair of 6-cavity moulds in .45, and one in .38 Special -- although for the latter, I prefer a swaged hollow-base wadcutter.

[Rod B]

I have been using The Lee six cavity  200gr tumble lube SWC mould for about five years.

I am well pleased with the job it does & would recommend it.

[HawkEyeEarl]

I shoot lead and wheel weights in 45 acp.
I buy and make my 45 acp.
Usually 230 gr RN.
But also 200 gr SWC.
They shoot clean enough for my sessions of 50 to 500 rounds.
Any bullet with enough shots between cleaning will dirty a gun from powder, oil, wax, lead, copper, dirt etc.
50 or 500 or 5000 or 50000 will finally do it.
For my applications lead, lead-tin-antimony, wheel weights are great.
I can afford to have a lot of fun.
But they are serious bullets also.
Plus I believe the lead bullets wear my gun barrel much less than copper jacketed.
Earl

[1911crazy]

I have shot lead cast bullets for years at the range but i carry JHP's for personal protection in my carry gun.  Lastyear I purchased some cast bullets from Northwest Loading they were made by "BCS"  Bear Creek Supply and they are moly coated.  After i was done i had no lead fouling at all.  If you like me and don't cast bullets they have free shipping right now too so you can save a few more $$$ too.

And Mikey your right the make the 300 grainers too for the 444 plus Bear Creek Supply Co. manufactures cast bullets in all calibers too.  I just hate to shoot JHP's at paper all the time.  I will run a few after shooting lead just to keep the edge on full power loads.

[Graybeard]

vinconco, you MUST either get a valid e-mail address on file QUICKLY or you must stop asking for e-mail notice of PMs and threads you are watching. If the bounced e-mails do not stop coming to me from your invalid e-mail address I will have no choice but to enforce the rules and deactivate you account.

[unclenick]

I recall the late Ed McGivern's book, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, included groups from his K-frame Smith .22 at 100,000 rounds and at 200,000 rounds.  No problem.  Lead simply isn't hard enough to wear a barrel significantly at normal pressures.  Wad loads, say, 3.8 grains of Bullseye under a 185 grain swaged lead bullet, would roughly match a .22 LR in pressure and bullet hardness.  Velocity would be lower.  

In the m. 1911, the gun shoots loose long before the barrel wears out from lead bullets.  The Rule of thumb for hardball is a barrel will shoot out somewhere in the vicinity of 25-30,000 rounds (unless the steel was poor).  The gun will likely need to be tightened up once or twice during that period.  For softball, I just have never heard of a barrel shooting out.  At 50,000 rounds you will probably have to get someone with a good hand at TIG welding to build the metal on the link lugs back up with magazine spring steel or music wire, so you can re-cut them to tighten the lock-up.  But the rifling and muzzle and chamber will be fine.  I seem to recall McGivern's revolver had to be tightened up mechanically by the factory before that second group was fired.

Regarding fouling, I've seen it in .45s before, particularly with swaged bullets which are softer than casting alloys usually are.  Either swaged or cast bullets can foul a .45 if you don't avoid shearing lead off the bullets as you seat them.  Be sure you have properly set your case neck expander and that your seating die fits the bullet nose form to prevent this.  Another trick is to use a taper crimp die as a separate loading step, so nothing in the seating die is squeezing down on the case mouth while the bullet is still moving into place.  Once you've settled on a bullet design, you might even want to custom fit your seating die punch by removing it from the die, cleaning it out, greasing up a bullet with Johnson's paste wax, and puting some bedding compound or JB Weld down in the punch cup, then setting the bullet in to get an exact match.  The main trick is getting exact axial alignment while the epoxy sets.  I made a tool on my lathe for this, but I imagine you could use a Lee sizing die body and a flat surface (like plate glass) to achieve the same result.  If you do find you are shaving lead, go around the case mouth with the point of an awl to clear the lead ring off before you shoot it.

I've seen at least two .45 barrels I would, in fact, firelap.  Both had tool marks in the throat so deep and sharp they would neck the throat area down a couple of thousandths after only 30 rounds went through.  Accuracy was only good for the first 20 shots.

One last accuracy tip:  Use your gun's barrel as a seating depth guide.  I've seen swaged lead bullet group sizes cut in half just by headspacing off the bullet rather than the case mouth.  To do this in the 1911, you take the barrel out of the gun, drop a loaded round in place and check that the case head face is flush with the back of the barrel extension (hood).  Usually it drops ever so slightly lower if you are headspacing off the case.  Adjust the seating depth outward until you get a match.  Analogous seating should be possible on any gun.  You want the bullet seated out enough that the round just fits the chamber.  Doing this gets the bullet centered axially in the throat.  No tilt, no flier.

The other reason for headspacing off the bullet is most lead bullets are hand-loaded.  So what?  The problem is that, unlike rifle cases, .45ACP cases actually shorten with repeated reloading, changing the achieved headspace.  The pressures are too low to stick the case to the chamber wall and stretch the head backward from the web perimeter as happens in a rifle.  The straight sizing die then swages the brass rearward a bit as well.  Expect to see 1/4 to 1/2 a thousandth lost with each reloading.  After a couple dozen reloadings, you start to see groups open up from this if you are headspacing off the case mouth.

Nick

[vinconco]

Nick;
   You certainly have it right!  The only thing I would add is to use a powder with a lower flame temp to reduce leading.   Unique is the worst offender with cast bullets.   I used it for years.... it was my favorite powder because it was so versatile but it causes the base of the bullet to melt and lead the barrel.  I thought it was SOP to use a lewis lead remover to clean my 45 until I was enlightened by other 45 shooters at my club.   I like bullseye but have found some of the newer powders such as Hodgdon "Clays" to be better in the fouling and smoke dept.

[unclenick]

Vinconco,

The powder is a good point.  When I first started competing Bullseye was the standard.  Good accuracy, but sooty, and the flake powders burn warm, as you point out.  Many people I knew gradually switched to WW 231 during this period.  Didn't start out as accurate in a clean gun, but the held accuracy better throughout the day.  Less fouling.  Many were using Star swaged bullets in Star loaders back then.  The ball powders meter better in the measures and burn cooler.

The other thing you can do is use a polywad to prevent leading.  They work well, but you use up a little case capacity and need to check that your load workup is still valid if you do.

Nick