Author Topic: Let's hear it liberals...  (Read 2588 times)

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Offline big medicine

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Let's hear it liberals...
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2005, 11:56:47 AM »
I'm not going to answer for Michael. I dont know the first thing about him. And frankly could give a Sh$% about him. He is no saint and I dont think any one here proclaims him to be. It is not him we are talking about. I dont give a Sh#$ about his motives. What we are talking about is the continued daily torture of a brain dead person, who was unfortunate enough to be revived through the miracles of modern medicine after her brain had been denied oxygen causing it to die but yet her heart revived. How does this differ from removing anyother person from life support? How does it differ from removing and accident victim, stroke victim, or heart attack victim from life support? People do not die the second the machine is unplugged. I remember watching a childhood friend die after his parents stopped life support after a car accident that left him brain dead. He was able to breath on his own for about 2 hours before he died. As tough as it was for his parents, they had the ability to see things for what they were, and were not so selfish that they would keep him "alive" for their benefit.

I think you need some basic understanding of what happens when the brain is dead. She didnt know she wasnt getting anything in the feeding tube, just as she didnt know that she was getting anything in the feeding tube. She didnt feel hunger like you or your dog. A feeding tube does not provide a bolus of food like you get when you eat a meal giving you a feeling of being full. Rather it trickles in liquid over 24 hours, giving your body sodium and potassium and other very basic nutrients. If you could feel hunger you would feel like you were starving 24 hr a day. Dont fool your self that this is as humane as some might make you believe.

These people can not swallow, that is why they are fed through a tube. One major problem is aspirate pneumonia, even with a tube. The liquid is regurgitated up through the esophagus and down the trachea to the lungs. That is why they dont get large amounts of liquids at once and rather spread out over time, but aspitarion still happens. Then there are more treatments, more blood draws, more blood gas draws where they draw the blood from arteries, more IVs for antibiotics ect ect, and you do this over and over again. And for what purpose? It doesnt change the outcome, it only prolongs it. Can any of you say that you believe this is for the benefit of the patient? And in what way do they benefit?

Nobody who is in favor of this has answered the question. Would you want it done to you? Would you want to lay there for a year, ten years, twenty years that way? Having people stick you, shove tubes in and out, drag you to the hospital every other month to have your pneumonia treated, lay in your own excretions until someone came to wipe you. Having your limbs twisted and contracted. Tell me this is how you would want to live.

My Father had a feeding tube after his stroke. By his choice. He was able to tell us that he wanted it. He couldnt talk (very well) you could understand some things. He couldnt swallow with out getting fluid in his lungs, thus the need for the feeding tube. He always told me how hungry he was and how dry his mouth was. Even using swabs for his mouth he always complained of it. He died of an aspitate pneumonia about a year to the day after his stroke. When he got bad and couldnt respond, we chose not to prolong his suffering. A week later my Dad died. He was never in pain he slowly slipped away. That was eight years ago. As much as I miss my Dad I would not have wished what awaited him had we chose to keep him alive on my worst enemy. Knowing my Dad is with God is much more comforting than seeing him in a contracted unresponsive state in a nursing home. As much as it hurt to let go, the benefit was his.

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2005, 03:16:09 AM »
Big Med;

  I would never deride the opinion of any person long involved in personal care of individuals, such as you are...
  Often times the immediate care giver has a better handle on the actual state of the patient's health than the Dr., who stops by once or twice a day.
   I have seen that proven when I went through a similar trial as the Schindlers did with Terri...My son was in bad physical shape for ten years before he died...even though he could and did pass the practice tests for Mensa (didn't join though).
  I have a brother and two sisters-in-law that are in the medical field, not Drs. , but close..
    I would rather get info from them than many Drs. I have known.

   My main trepidation is as Bushmaster said; the husband has a great conflict of interest in more than one way..
   The evidence shows that he didn't want her to recover....esp when he had her moved to a pro-death "hospice" (Fox news report)..
   Without written instructions, the judge could have given the parents and the nurses a shot at trying to rehab...why not ?
   Probably the wealthy person that offered $10 million would have helped with the expenses, or they could have raised it from national supporters.
   What's wrong with "giving life a chance" ?

    With all the conflict of interest, and the fact that the care givers she did have were pro-euthanasia, along with the judge....I honestly doubt that the picture we were shown of Terri's brain may have been her picture...

   To top off the whole situation...not allowing Cyril Wecks (sp) to observe the autopsy, followed by cremation...AGAINST her wishes is honestly suspect.

   The "husband' could have cleared the shadow of spousal abuse hanging over him  by allowing the Schindler's forensic specialist to observe....unless he's truly hiding something..

   I do not buy his story about starving her because he was bound to " follow her wishes"...because he didn't feel quite so "bound" when he took up with another woman within the first two years after she became ill..

   You will also note: he didn't mind going AGAINST HER WISHES when it came to cremation...

   ...Something has an odor like limburger..

  Had she signed a living will and were the care givers obviously forthright and honest...you would never heard a peep from me..

   I have signed a living will and endorse them..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline big medicine

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« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2005, 05:57:19 AM »
Ironglow,
I know how it feels to loose a parent but cant begin to know what it feels to loose a child. I feel for your loss of you son.

I agree that Michael didnt play any of the cards well. And maby he should have just washed his hands of the whole thing and dumped her in her parents lap to deal with. I dont think any of us will ever know the whole truth with this deal. I dont think her parents are saints either. There is probably enough half truths on both sides to sink a battleship. I think was a pawn in an ugly family fued.

I see way too much of this and the only looser is always the patient. I have patients that live alone and cant take care of them selves and belong in assisted living or nursing homes where they can get care, but their POA wont do it because they dont want the funds used up that they will get when the patient dies. It makes me sick to my stomach at times. There are nights I cant sleep because I worry about this patient or that patient. I worry if they will wonder off or burn thier house down ect. All I can do is document to cover my six. All too often there are alternative motives by one party or the other or both.

Like Williek said in an earler post. I hope this case brings to light the need to have everyone have their wishes documented. People will never agree 100% on everything, but when they can have civil discussions something useful may come from it. My regards Sir.

Offline ironglow

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« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2005, 09:14:50 PM »
Big Med;
  I certainly can see where you're coming from.
    It's really ugly when the love of money starts to take the place of the natural love that should be present between parent/child or husband /wife.
   I apologize for the somewhat brusque statement I made a few posts ago. It was a purely rhetorical question...I didn't truly believe for one moment that you would want severely ill patients eliminated..

                               Ironglow..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline big medicine

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« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2005, 03:59:54 AM »
Ironglow,
It is OK no apology was needed, but accepted. (friendly hand shake) Take care!

Offline Nightrain52

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« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2005, 05:49:35 AM »
I will just make one more statement on this subject. Modern day medicine is a wonderful thing and saves lots of lives. Anymore medical teams are more or less expected to bring people back from the edge of death and a lot of times they do. In this case the mistake was made 15 years ago and it never should have been allowed to go this far in the first place. The medical team should have brought all parties together at that time and been forthright and just said there is no hope and lets put an end to the suffering now. Life is a precious thing but the time comes when we have to let it go and let the natural process do it's job. Yes, I too got caught up in the emotional side of this case but after much thought and consideration I see both sides of the coin. Emotions can be a good thing or a bad thing. Thats why it sometimes takes someone not involved to make a decision whether we see it as right or wrong. This case should never be allowed to drag on this long. :?
FREEDOM IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR-ARE YOU WILLING TO DIE FOR IT--------IT'S HARD TO SOAR LIKE AN EAGLE WHEN YOU ARE SURROUNDED BY TURKEYS

Offline crashresidue

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« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2005, 10:56:27 PM »
Cheers,

This is a "hand grenade" of a topic.  Everybody's RIGHT and everybody's WRONG!

All I want to add is "DO THE DAMN WILL!"

Please - don't make us go throught this again!

"Yes" keep me alive! Or - "Kiss me one last time" and shut ALL this crap down and let me GO!

NO matter which way you feel - GET IT IN WRITING before it's needed!!!

I didn't mean to snap.

Gentle winds,
Russ
When all else fails, call for the gunships!

Offline tubbythetuba

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« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2005, 10:37:20 AM »
Also,  be careful of durable powers of attorney. In many cases, they can over ride wills or written instructions.
That Sound You Hear In The Woods While Hunting  Is Deer Laughing