Author Topic: Inferior Black Powder (Read 894 times)

Woodbutcher · « **on:** May 22, 2005, 04:25:21 AM »

Gentlemen:
A statement made on this site recently, as well as some things I've read lead me to ask, why is todays modern manufactured black powder regarded as inferior to yesteryears product.
I've read that the fouling residue from the "old stuff" was moister, didn't build up in the bore, compared to modern powder.
One would think that in these modern times, manufacturers would be able to duplicate this. Is this so? Why? Not complaining, just curious.
Woodbutcher

ribbonstone · « **Reply #1 on:** May 22, 2005, 05:42:50 AM »

Today, it's proabably the carbon...that's the only part that can't be chemically pure today as "charcoal" isn't chemically pure carbon (and BP works best when it ISN'T pure). Even today, some will specifiy a certain wood charcoal, others will just say "hardwood", and many just buy the charcoal from whomever is selling it as a "generic". Adler and Willow seem to have been the most prefered wood...but I'd guess the local makers of the 1800's would use whatever grew near them.

The glaze may have something to do with it as well...that thin layer of graphite (and perhaps other chemicals) that gives BP that look. Have lave seem some older powders that didn't have that glossy black coat, and others that were so rounded and glazed over that it looked more like smokeless. Would think that would have more to do with igniton, but it would have to effect the bruning as well.

Will read about "soft" and "hard" black powders of the past...some would crush easily and others would resist compression.

Were some other variations in the past...and a belif that powder stored well over the years actually got better (would identify the best lots and store it away under the best possible conditions for use in powder trains and the like).

Reading on the problems in the 1970's when several makers stepped in after Dupont stopped making BP (at least for a time), there were some granulation issues. Even today, one makers FFFG isn't quite the same as another's.

So, even today, with all the chiomically pure ingredianets, we can't get two makers of BP to end up with the same results...that would have been even more so in the 1800's, and each powder would have had more variables built in. Evidently, from the books of the time, some of those combinations turned out pretty well.

But would there be a commercial market big enough for "botique" black powders? One specifically fomulated to work best in shotguns...or one specifically best at small bore rifles?

Woodbutcher · « **Reply #2 on:** May 22, 2005, 09:24:10 AM »

Thanks Ribbonstone. Good info! Botique Black Powder, you say? Interesting! I wonder how much blackpowder has to be produced for it to be economically feasible for a special batch of "good stuff"?
Minor point, really. There's nothing wrong with what we have available now. Woodbutcher

ribbonstone · « **Reply #3 on:** May 22, 2005, 10:16:41 AM »

Will give you an example. Lot of people bad-mouthed Elephant brand black powder...and it doesn't go all that great a job in muzzle loading rifles...low vel. for the charge weight and complaints of fouling

BUt that same powder could have ben marketed as a "specialist" powder...it's great in 12ga. or 10ga. muzzle loaders.

Lyman lists it as giving just a little less vel. than Goex. but at nearly 1/2 the pressure of Goex....so you give up 10% vel. of a shot charge for nearly 1/2 the pressure. That's an exceptionaly good trade.

Fouls..but so does every other brand of black powder asked to work at the pressure level shotguns live.

By the smae token, Swiss powder makes me a bit nervous in shotguns...Fg would be fine, but I'd prefer not to feed them the finer grades of Swiss.

Ramrod · « **Reply #4 on:** May 22, 2005, 11:49:07 AM »

ribbonstone got it right about the charcoal. Makes a huge difference. And in todays corporate world you always buy from the cheapest source. The Nitrate has to be pure too, but fertilizer grade is much cheaper. And there is no competition anymore among American makers, compared to all the powder works that existed 150 years ago.

ribbonstone · « **Reply #5 on:** May 22, 2005, 04:57:36 PM »

Hasn't been a main concern of the powder makers...seem to be trying to "pitch to the middle" and make a powder that is at least useful in all applications. Generally, they have done just that, making a powder that can be used in all applications.

IT's we shooters that have goten more specific in our needs. Would be great to have a Fg buring hard grained powder, moisture resistant and not needed a great deal of compression, while generating low pressure for shotgun use.....and a FFFG buring, highly compressible, lower fouling powder for use in cap-and-ball revolvers,,,etc.

But it ain't going to happen...may see a good safe almost smokeless replacement...new substitute powders...and perhaps some blacks with extra addititves...but doubt we'll see any specific use BP's except by accident.

lostid · « **Reply #6 on:** May 22, 2005, 05:20:30 PM »

Well said ribbonstone, for a short explaination well done.

Another angle is,, those old European makers, quite literally ran out of the wood to make charcoal!! They cut down all the Alder and Willow tree's in europe!
Old powder from 200yrs ago was made from charcoal from trees 100yrs old at that time.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2005, 08:18:21 AM »

All that a side........sense 9/11 and the patriot act, which imposed a heavy tax on black powder dealers........I can't find anyone in my area that sells black powder anymore.........I now shoot pyrodex..........

All the dealers tell me they have to pay a $500 dollar tax, plus a hasmat charge and there isn't enough margin in the product to break even.........they would have to sell a lot of powder to break even.........

I'm the kind of guy that will shoot a couple of pounds a year........so ordering it off the net and then paying a delivery fee and hasmat charge doesn't make sense to me.........

My prediction is that black powder will get harder to get, not easier........might try making some myself..........anyone got the secret formula for FFG or FFFG?

ribbonstone · « **Reply #8 on:** May 23, 2005, 12:32:06 PM »

Certainly isn't getting easier to find black powder...and we flintlock shooters really don't much care for the artificial powders. Pan is non-compressed, and the artificail powders just doen't burn all that energieticly when not compressed...can get a good flineter to set them off, but it's a lazy slow burst from the pan.

Admit that in practice sessions ahve been using more substitute powders...not playing favorites, will use 777 for some, Pyrodex for others, etc. just to delay ordering Fg or FFFG (as the local shops don't often have those grainulations and the srtificals doesn't come in Fg).

Ramrod · « **Reply #9 on:** May 23, 2005, 12:40:46 PM »

Quote from: victorcharlie

...anyone got the secret formula for FFG or FFFG?

Off the top of my head, I believe it is 75% Potassium nitrate, 15% charcoal, and 10% sulfur.
Better get a good book or two before you try it. And maybe update your Will, just in case. :lol:

victorcharlie · « **Reply #10 on:** May 23, 2005, 03:20:35 PM »

Yea.....thanks Ramrod...........I say I only burn a couple of pounds a year....then burned a half a pound this evening.........

Man.....that Green Mountain barrel sure does shoot..........Less than 1" at 50 yards...........almost the same hole!

Bounced a coffee can 10 out of 10 times at 100 yards.........

70 grains of pyrodex......490 patched round ball out of my TC Renegade........I have a lot of centerfires that I can't shoot that well!

Winter Hawk · « **Reply #11 on:** May 24, 2005, 01:35:23 PM »

victorcharlie,

If you buy from Track, the price includes shipping & hazmat charges to the Lower 48:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/tableList.aspx?styleID=94&subID=30&catID=2

It might be worth it to go that route. If there are other folks who shoot the holy black near you, they may want to go in with you on the order. And don't forget, BP is inert, it won't go bad with age. Buy 25 lbs now and you can shoot for the next 5 or more years (depending on how much you shoot, of course).

-WH-

slayer · « **Reply #12 on:** May 24, 2005, 01:37:43 PM »

I bought so much BP about 10-15 years ago, I still have some left. I paid $7.99 Pound locally. How much does it average in price now? Jack.

ribbonstone · « **Reply #13 on:** May 24, 2005, 02:15:49 PM »

Going on vaction shortly...will make my order once I get back (BP isn't somehting I'd ask someone else...a non shooter...to keep arround waiting for me to pick up). OFf thetop of my head, am thinking I'll order close to the stoarge limit (depdning on what my wife leaves in the bank after).

Have read of some gov.s storing their best powder, under as close to ideal conditons as possible for the time, with the belief that it improved with age...keept it in reserve for powder trains and other uses where repeatability is a mjor issue. MAy be nothing to it...may have a point.

Powder prices haven't really risen all that much (at least for GOEX)...shipping restrictions and hax. mat. charges are the main increase....and considering my shotgun's prefernce (and appitite for powder) am thinking at leaast some of that order will be Graf's Fg.

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #14 on:** May 28, 2005, 01:37:10 AM »

Slayer,

I bought some about a year and a half ago.

$14.99/lb., and I had to drive from the Phoenix Metro area to Tucson to get it. The Phoenix Fire Marshall has a problem with it being sold in the metro area. Go figure.

After my stock runs out, I'm switching to Pyrodex or something similar.

Matt