Rifles in "The Ghost & The Darknes

[kombi1976]

I was watching the film "The Lion & The Darkness" and despite the questionable plot & poor acting, particularly on Michael Douglas behalf(IMHO of course), the rifles there were really fascinating. The 2 double rifles were really interesting but the bolt action Val Kilmer used really mystified me. It seemed to have a 2 piece stock like a SMLE but no detatchable box magazine. In fact the fore end resembled a Mauser. Can anyone tell me what exactly it is?

[kutenay]

I saw the movie and I think that the rifle was an early version of a sporterized Long Lee-Enfield, some of these had truncated military forarms and different buttstocks, the mags were cutdown to five rounds, so, they did not protrude. I once had a Geo. Gibbs & Son. custom rifle on this action, it had a horn forend tip, superb quarter-sawn wood and the original mag-cut-off plate. I let it go, long ago, as guns like that were a dime a dozen here in Canada until the Yanks went bonkers over old English guns, starting about 20 yrs. ago.

I just saw one of these listed at a "carriage-trade" gun dealers in Montana for $2400.00 USD, I could have bought this very same rifle in Victoria, B.C. for about $600.00 four years ago.....go figure....

I agree, it was a crappy movie, but, the Americans have absolutely NO understanding of how Victorian-Edwardian Englishmen behaved and the Yank "White Hunter" was a very poor take-off on "Bwana Cottar", IMO. I used to know a number of people of that type who were actually there in  
that era, so, I have some knowledge of it. Ah, the "Glorious Days of the Raj", eh wot!

[kombi1976]

I saw the movie and I think that the rifle was an early version of a sporterized Long Lee-Enfield, some of these had truncated military forarms and different buttstocks, the mags were cutdown to five rounds, so, they did not protrude.

I agree, it was a crappy movie, but, the Americans have absolutely NO understanding of how Victorian-Edwardian Englishmen behaved and the Yank "White Hunter" was a very poor take-off on "Bwana Cottar", IMO. I used to know a number of people of that type who were actually there in  
that era, so, I have some knowledge of it. Ah, the "Glorious Days of the Raj", eh wot!

Cut down mags, eh? Can you buy these or would you have to have one made up to suit?

As for crappy movies, it was a little unrealistic. The fact that the Irish hunter had an American accent was ridiculous. I'm fully aware a lot of Irish immgrated to the USA but none of them had American accents before they arrived!
As for the "Glorious Days of the British Raj", I'm a fan of trophy heads as much as any shooter but we can thank those puhka sahibs for the fact that it's so darn expensive to hunt trophy animals today. As in most cases a period of excess and corpulence by one group (European Imperialists) of people ends up costing the next group (us!). And while Bell has become a legend for his prowess in elephant hunting he and his ilk have seen disappearance of the really big trophy animals as their blood lines were hunted out. Game wardens and guides these days are careful to stop that sort of thing by giving the biggest animals decent length lives to breed in. In much of Africa it's almost too late for such management.

[Lawdog]

kombi1976,

The movie “The Ghost and The Darkness” is based on the real life of Col. John Henry Patterson’s exploits in Africa.  HBO, the makers of the movie, took many liberties(embellished) with the story line as there was no White Hunter Remington around at the time or in Col. John Patterson’s book “The Lions of Tzavo”(excellent book, one that should be read by any interested in Africa) that the movie was based on.  Actually the exploits of Remington sound more like those of J. A. Hunter, a famous White Hunter of that time period.  Considering everything HBO did a very good job trying to recreate the time period.  It was filmed on location and Val Kilmer stay in the camp used in the movie instead of going back to the accommodations used by the other actors.  Kilmer also got in some hunting while the picture was being filmed.

The single shot rifle is a Farqueson, caliber was most likely a Gibbs(.505?).  The double rifle used by Michael Douglas was a Wesley Richards most likely a .425.  Popular with White Hunters during that time period.  The bolt action that Val Kilmer used is, I believe a Lee Metford in .303 British but the ammo he was using wasn't available at that time. Should have had ammo with 215 gr. round nose bullets.  The double barreled pistol appears to be a "Howdah" pistol supposedly poplar in India for backup use in hunting tigers from elephant back.  The double shotgun is hard to identify as many different makes were and are available.  Lawdog
 

[kombi1976]

Lawdog, what's the difference between the magazine on the Lee Metford and the magazine on the SMLE?
Is the Metford's more like a mag more like a Mauser mag?

[kevin.303]

the main difference between the magazine on a Lee Metford and  that on a SMLE is that the Metford is a 8 round single stack, compared to the SMLE's 10 round double stack. that's only on the MK 1, the MK 2 used a 10 round double stack identical to the LE. the LM was a designed as a black powder cartridge rifle, using Metford style rifling. when the switch was made to long strand cordite they used Enfield rifling, and the action was made stronger. for the rifle in the movie the magazine was trimmed down, mainly for cosmetic reasons. i'm doing the same thing with a No.4 LE that i'm rebuilding to .405. the movie rifle is one that was sportered by a custom firm, i think Wesley Richards. in the future i plan to start building custom rifles along these lines using Martini's and Lee's.

[DanP]

Colonel Patterson did not really represent his position with the railroad building company very accurately in his book.  The movie did less in terms of explaining why the railroad was being built, where the funds were coming from, and how they expected to earn money.  The part about the men being eaten is likely right, as was the use of the empty rail cars as a trap.  Theodore Roosevelt, who read the book, said it was a very good story.  I think that was the point of the movie.  They wanted to turn it into a good story...
 
Kilmer was *trying* to sound Irish...  once in a while, he got the arrrr's rolled right to make a brough, but it was very inconsistent.  On the broader front, I don't think most of us understand what Victorians acted like, how they behaved, etc.  
 
At the time, and it remains so to me, the movie was striking in that it was one of the few movies out at the time that portrayed hunting in a positive light -- or anything like a positive light... that at a time when Klinton was president, and even jurassic Park was decidedly anti-hunting w/ Jurassic Park II.
 
Dan

[Lawdog]

Colonel Patterson did not really represent his position with the railroad building company very accurately in his book.  The movie did less in terms of explaining why the railroad was being built, where the funds were coming from, and how they expected to earn money.  The part about the men being eaten is likely right, as was the use of the empty rail cars as a trap.  Theodore Roosevelt, who read the book, said it was a very good story.  I think that was the point of the movie.  They wanted to turn it into a good story...
 
Kilmer was *trying* to sound Irish...  once in a while, he got the arrrr's rolled right to make a brough, but it was very inconsistent.  On the broader front, I don't think most of us understand what Victorians acted like, how they behaved, etc.  
 
At the time, and it remains so to me, the movie was striking in that it was one of the few movies out at the time that portrayed hunting in a positive light -- or anything like a positive light... that at a time when Klinton was president, and even jurassic Park was decidedly anti-hunting w/ Jurassic Park II.
 
Dan

Some added information about this movie is that Val Kilmer stayed at the movie site at night in one of the tents set up for the movie instead of going back to the hotel/motel with the rest of the actors.  He managed to get in some hunting during the filming.  The Massi Warriors they hired for the film wanted to forgo their pay for the right to hunt one of the three trained Lions they had on the set.  Seems they hadn’t seen Lions with manes like or the size they were in years.  I have the Directors cut DVD that includes a DVD(almost 2 hours long) telling about the making of The Ghost & The Darkness.  I agree with you about the movie being refreshing due to it's showing hunting in a positive light instead of the way most did at that time period(and even now).  Lawdog
 

[Arizona Jake]

One more interesting tidbit...

Contrary to the lions shown in the movie, the real man-eating lions that Col. Patterson killed were MANELESS. There a 2 or 3 pictures of them in Col. Patterson's book "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo". The book is available through Safari Club.

Both lions are on display at the Chicago Museum of Natural History.

[Slamfire]

I think the bolt action rifle was a Lee Speed, a sporting rifle for the carriage trade made by one of the private arms companies like BSA, but I don't know which one.  :wink:

[kevin.303]

correct you are Slamfire, it's a Speed Lee Metford. a guy on a Canadian forum was selling one in good condition for $250, but alas i was broke. the really good deals always come along when i have no money.

[Lawdog]

One more interesting tidbit...

Contrary to the lions shown in the movie, the real man-eating lions that Col. Patterson killed were MANELESS. There a 2 or 3 pictures of them in Col. Patterson's book "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo". The book is available through Safari Club.

Both lions are on display at the Chicago Museum of Natural History.

You can get The Man-Eaters of Tsavo Hardcover Edition from www.Amazon.com for $14.19 and up, brand new.  Excellent reading for those that enjoy reading about Africa in the years past.  A great way to spend a cold, rainy evening instead of watching the boob tube.  Lawdog
 

[Slamfire]

correct you are Slamfire, it's a Speed Lee Metford. a guy on a Canadian forum was selling one in good condition for $250, but alas i was broke. the really good deals always come along when i have no money.

I have seen a couple in the various auction forums, but had such a bad experience with a Mark V, that I don't ever want another Lee whatever. I'll stick to my popgun 6.5mms. If you ever see a genuine .256 Rigby let me know.  :grin:

[kevin.303]

Mk 5? do you mean the No.5 " Jungle Carbine"? what was your bad experiance?

[Ramrod]

I would like to hear about it also. A No.5 " Jungle Carbine" is up there on the top of my new purchase list.

[Slamfire]

The worst part was the hard rubber recoil pad that was actually smaller in area than the butt of the stock. Ouch. They wouldn't hold their zero either, which is the primary reason the Brit Army dropped 'em. I'm given to understand that some outfit is converting Mk IVs and they are giving good service.  

[kombi1976]

Yep, the No.5s kick like a mule.
Too light, barrel too short, hell in a handbasket.
And there is an Aussie company called A.I.A.(Australian International Arms) which are reproducing the No.4 style action.
The Mk10 which comes in either a version similar to the Jungle Carbine chambered in 7.62x39 with a AK style magazine either in 24" or 20" barrel or another version chambered in 308 Win with No.4 style furniture.
Both have rear apperture sights and can be fitted with a Picatinny rail to mount a scope.
At around AUD$1000 it's fairly steep but if you like a SMLE and lust for something modern with a taste of the old then the Mk10 may be your beast.
The whole action is much better than a standard No.4 though and both use a big AK style mag from memory.
They're machined to close tolerances from high grade steel, hence the price.
Look up Lawrance Ordnance Australia on Google and search through their site for more details.

[kevin.303]

stop reminding me you Aussie twit!! :twisted:

oh, how i lust for an AIA No.4 Mk 4, in .308, full No.4 wood, with scope mount and 20 round M14 mag. sorry, here in canada thats a 5/20 round mag. :cry:  :cry:  :cry:

[kombi1976]

stop reminding me you Aussie twit!! :twisted:

oh, how i lust for an AIA No.4 Mk 4, in .308, full No.4 wood, with scope mount and 20 round M14 mag. sorry, here in canada thats a 5/20 round mag. :cry:  :cry:  :cry:

Now there's no need to be rude, Kev.  
BTW, aren't you guys allowed 20 round mags?
Seems silly to me.
Anyhow, why don't you just start saving up.....that and avoid dentists.:mrgreen:

[kevin.303]

sorry, my emotions got the better of me :lol:

here's where our laws get silly, well, sillier then they are already are. with a very few exemptions, semi automatic centerfire rifles can only have a capacity of 5 rounds. there is no capacity restriction on other actions or rimfire semi autos. still with me? good, because it's about to get very confusing. some firearms can interchange magazines. like the Beretta 92 and the CX4 Storm. pistol mags can have 10 rounds,  so the CX4 is exempt from the 5 round limit because it uses pistol mags. the Remington 7600 .223 Patrol Rifle has a magazine that can interchange with an AR15 mag. it's a pump action so a 20 round magazine would be legal, as long as it's stamped " for Remington 7600 only". in the 7600, it's legal, but once it's put in an AR15 your breaking the law. same with the No. 4 Mk 4. if it's shipped with a 20 round mag made specifically for that rifle by AIA, it should be legal, but any M14 mag in this country will be pinned to 5 rounds  because they are for an evil semi automatic death machine that spits out cyanide tipped armour piercing bullets. or so the government would have us believe. :x

[kombi1976]

same with the No. 4 Mk 4. if it's shipped with a 20 round mag made specifically for that rifle by AIA, it should be legal, but any M14 mag in this country will be pinned to 5 rounds  because they are for an evil semi automatic death machine that spits out cyanide tipped armour piercing bullets. or so the government would have us believe. :x

Yep, same dumb logic in legislating over here.  :evil:
It lets us have pump action rifles of any cal but prevents us from having pump action shotguns unless you have special permission. :|
That said, all you have to do is ring AIA and have them stamp the mag "For AIA No.4 Mk4 only" and you're in. :wink:

[bang_off]

...
And there is an Aussie company called A.I.A.(Australian International Arms) which are reproducing the No.4 style action.
....

Hiya kombi  

what tha?? that'd be like buying a mexican VW from the 90's!  

I'll be quiet now before you say something about the H&R action.....

[kombi1976]

...
And there is an Aussie company called A.I.A.(Australian International Arms) which are reproducing the No.4 style action.
....

Hiya kombi  

what tha?? that'd be like buying a mexican VW from the 90's!  

I'll be quiet now before you say something about the H&R action.....

Well, it would be if VW actually had improved the flat four engine and were manufacturing them in a much more careful manner.  :wink:
Actually the AIA rifles are really nice, tight pieces of equipment.
Otherwise they couldn't chamber them in 7.62 NATO. :mrgreen:
Where're are ya based Down Under, mate?

[bang_off]

...
Where're are ya based Down Under, mate?

How many people do you know with an H&R hummer?   :wink:  :wink:  :wink:

 :grin:

[Slamfire]

Well, it would be if VW actually had improved the flat four engine and were manufacturing them in a much more careful manner.  :wink:

Well they did, but they put it in the Type 4 instead of the beetle. Mine made a great car pool vehicle. One fellah was gettin' nervous as we approached a pass, cause we didn't try buildin' up speed like ordinary VWs needed to. Just imagine his suprise when we accelerated all the way up the hill.  :lol:

[flyingcircusboy]

I would like to interject a quick note about Irish accents. There seems to be a prevailing misconception that all Irish people sound like Lucky the Leprochan. I too was of this opinion. In fact, I watched the movie "Ordinary Decent Criminal" with Kevin Spacey. I was upset because it didn't even sound like some of the people in that movie were even trying. Then I actually went to Ireland. The truth of the matter is that there are alot of native Irish folk who sound remarkably American. In fact, I was even mistaken for a local, by locals. So my rudimentary conclusion is that maybe what we call an American accent actually originates from Ireland. So in all plausibility Val Kilmer's character in the aforememtioned movie could have been Irish. So there....... FCB