Author Topic: Was it the Scope or the Mounts??? (Read 545 times)

squirrel_hunter6 · « **on:** May 18, 2005, 10:56:09 AM »

I recently bought a new Winchester Model 70 Super Shadow in 223 WSSM. I bought a used 6.5-20x50 Simmons Whitetail Classic scope and the gunsmith used Leupold Rifleman bases and some other brand of rings to mount the scope. I purchased everything at the same time from this store. The gunsmith bore-sighted the scope. This was the first time I had ever been in this store and I bought the gun because I thought I got a good deal on it. I dont plan on taking the gun hunting so I figured that I didnt need to high dollar super clear scope just something good enough to have fun at the range.

But anyway, I went to the shooting range to try it out and I couldnt hit paper at 50 yards. So I walked over to the 25 yard range and still couldnt hit paper! I put the target at 30 feet and I was hitting the top right corner of the page. I tried to adjust the scope and but it bottomed out in the vertical adjustment and it was still hitting the top right corner. My friend that was with me said to try and adjust it to the left. I went to try and do that and the horizontal adjustment was already bottomed out!

Needless to say, I was pretty frustrated that I couldnt sight in my new gun. There was a guy at the range that took a look at it and said the wrong mounts were put on it. The rear mount had some curvature to it and the receiver was flat. You could see a gap between the mount and the receiver. He said that WSSM receivers are a different design than the standard receivers. He told me that was causing my problem.

That afternoon I took the gun back the store I had bought it from and told the gunsmith about the problem. He told me that the mounts on all Winchester Model 70s were interchangeable and that wasnt the problem and the gap didnt matter. He said that it sounded to him like it was a scope problem because it should have had enough adjustment to sight in. He said he would send the scope back to the factory and let them check it out. When he brought my gun back to me from the back room it didnt have any bases or rings on it. He said that he looked in a catalogue and Weaver just came out with some bases made for this gun and he would order a set for me at no cost. He said it would be three weeks before he would hear back from Simmons about the scope.

Was the scope at fault or was the problem caused because he put the wrong mounts on the gun? I looked on Leupolds website and they have a listing specifically for WSSMs so, that guy was feeding me crap about the mounts being interchangeable. Does anybody know if a used Simmons scope has any warranty? I dont want to pay for any repairs if I dont have to.

Frustrated in Alabama :evil:

KN · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2005, 11:43:05 AM »

Off the top of my head I would say its the mounts. I scoped a similar rifle and the rear mount matched the action. Sounds to me like he had the wrong mounts or was installing them backwards. But I also have two of the scopes you mentioned and both had to be returned to the factory right off the bat. Wouldn't hold zero. Once I got them back I haven't had any trouble with them but my confidence isn't very good. KN

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 18, 2005, 12:14:49 PM »

Sounds like a mount problem to me.

Zachary · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2005, 01:53:07 PM »

IF, and I say IF, the gunsmith really did in fact bore sight the scope (and did it properly) then it wouldn't be the scope mounts. Every time that I mount a scope, I make sure that the bore is directly underneath the cross hairs. I'm not sure if this is the best way to ensure proper mounting, but it works almost perfectly for me every time. How do I know? On several occasions, my very first shot is not only on paper at 100 yards, but also almost perfect on the vertical line, just high about 6 inches or so.

For you to not be able to hit paper at 100yards, 50 yards, or even 25 yards, but only hit paper at about 30 feet and even then hit the paper way off leads me to believe that it is a mounting problem. Go back to the store and tell this guy what happened. Show him the target and tell him to take back the bases and rings and get yourself some quality leupold dual dovetail bases and matching rings. Go to leupold's website and find out the correct numbers. Then take the gun and scope to a reputable gunsmith and have him mount it for you.

BTW, let me tell you a little story. I once took my .375H&H mag at a gunsmith here in Miami called Somarriba, Inc. These guys charge top dollar and, for the most part, they do pretty good work. However, when they once mounted my .375H&H, they did the sorriest job that I have ever seen. When I went to pick up the gun, I looked through the scope and set it on 1.5x (where you can see the barrel and sight). Well, the crosshairs were all the way to the right. I asked Jose (the owner's son) if something was wrong. He looked at it and said it was fine. Well, I went to the range and pretty much the SAME THING HAPPENED TO ME. I couldn't hit paper at 50 yards. So I readjusted the scope myself and bore sighted it myself (which is very easy to do when you have a .375" hole.

) Anyway, the bullet was almost perfect vertical and a little low at 50 yards! :eek: Then I took it to 100 yards and it was just a little high, but still in the middle! After adjusting the scope, I finally got it to not only hit bullseye at 100 yards, but also shoot less than .25" groups at 100 yards!!! :eek: And you meant to tell me that Somarriba, the "professionals" did a good job? Heck, I bet you that they didn't do anything and just charged me the $50 - what a freaking rip off! That's why I think that your guy didn't do anything.

Zachary

Zachary

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2005, 02:25:08 PM »

If he truly bore sighted it, he would of found out that he had no adjustment and would not of been able to get it properly bore sighted.

In my opinion he did not have it bore sighted. I mount my own mounts and scope and bore sight all my own guns. I am on paper all the time. It takes me less that 6 bullets to get the gun sighed in, and then I tweak the scope at my final zero.

I mount the scope as close to the gun as I can get to operate all the actions, and it has always worked for me. Also I buy a scope with enough moa adjustment. I know Leupold has a lot of adjustment and that is what I stick with.

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2005, 05:15:41 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

I know Leupold has a lot of adjustment and that is what I stick with.

Ehhhh, well, that's not necessarily true.

For Example,

The Leupold VX-III 3.5x-10x-40mm has only 40 MOA adjustment.
The Leupold VX-III 2.5x-8x-36mm has 50.
The Nikon Monarch 3x-9x-40mm has 55.
The Zeiss Conquest 3x-9x-40mm has 64
The Zeiss Conquest 3.5x-10x-44 has 66.

Just last week I ordered a VX-III 3.5x-10x-40mm from Jon at the optic zone to mount on my Kimber 8400 Montana in .300WSM. As you can see, this scope has the least amount of adjustment. However, I am not too concerned about it since, as you youself have experienced, I am very good about bore sighting and putting my first shot on paper and getting it on bullseye within about 5 or 6 shots. The biggest reason that I bought the VX-III (in addition to doing a personal report) is because Leupolds generally have the longest eye relief - and that is virtually indisputable. :wink:

Zachary

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #6 on:** May 18, 2005, 05:41:33 PM »

Zachary, I stand corrected. But I still will stick to my Leupolds. :wink:

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2005, 02:50:01 AM »

Yes, Redhawk, I know.

You know that I am a huge Elite 4200 and Nikon Monarch fan, and that I think that the Leupolds are over priced. However, with the new VX-III glass at 98% light transmission and thus the "handing down" of the older Vari-X III glass at a respectable 92% to the new VX-II line, I must admit that now the Leupolds are not as overpriced as they once were. GB said recently that the new VX-II line is the best value in the Leupold line and I agree. The VX-II is just a tad bit behind the Elite 4200s and Nikon Monarchs in light transmission and resolution, but they are less expensive, and thus comparable. Still, comparing apples to apples, the 4200s and Monarchs are supposed to compete with the new VX-IIIs (which now have 98% light transmission). The VX-IIIs are still noticeably more expensive than the Elite 4200s and Monarchs, but not necessarily overpriced anymore - at least not in my eyes. Granted, I need to actually see a VX-III to make that determination, and I have one on order from Jon at the Optic Zone, but just from the numbers, and Leupold's reputation for consistent quality and product output, I would imagine this to be correct. Plus, the added benefits of Leupolds, generally speaking, is that they are lighter and have more eye relief than the Elite 4200s, and pretty much any other scope.

So with the new improvements in the Leupold lines, I just might be siding with you RedHawk and become a Leupold advocate.

Zachary

victorcharlie · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2005, 05:09:06 AM »

Zachary...........you for got the assembled in the USA............that should really make you feel better!!!!!!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

Zachary · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2005, 05:33:46 AM »

If quality and price are comparable, then yes, it would make me feel better. However, without starting a huge debate, I believe that competition is a good thing and if another scope of different origin makes a better scope and sells it for less, then I'll buy it - case in chief being the Elite 4200s and Nikon Monarchs. These scopes, especially the Nikon Monarchs, are tough to beat for the price. Again, the new VX-IIs and VX-IIIs are better than previous models thus partly justifying their higher price. The next scope I get will probably be a VX-II because, dollar to quality, it is a very good value. However, I would buy an Elite 4200 and/or Nikon Monarch over the older Vari-X II and Vari-X IIIs any day, regardless of origin.

Zachary

squirrel_hunter6 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2005, 11:18:43 AM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

If he truly bore sighted it, he would of found out that he had no adjustment and would not of been able to get it properly bore sighted.

I bet you're right.

Quote from: Zachary

Show him the target and tell him to take back the bases and rings and get yourself some quality leupold dual dovetail bases and matching rings. Go to leupold's website and find out the correct numbers. Then take the gun and scope to a reputable gunsmith and have him mount it for you.

The guy said he would order some Weaver bases that were made for this gun. I looked on Weaver's website and they do have a separate listing for Winchester Model 70 WSSM. I went to Leupold's website and they don't have Dual Dovetail mounts for this gun they only have STD mounts. If the Weaver mounts fix the problem I will probably just stick with them for now.

I don't know what's going to happen with my scope though. I hope that he doesn't just keep the scope in the back room for three weeks and then call and tell me that it's fixed and to come get it!

If I still have a problem when I get everything back, then I will go ahead and buy those Leupold mounts and rings. I will definitely go somewhere else to have the scope mounted.