22-250 Tuning Help Please

[218Bee]

Hey all,    
   
I've noticed I can slip a 0.0015 shim (thinnest I have) in the top of the action of my 22-250, after I fire a round. Not every round but about 50% of the time. The shim will work in about 1/3 of the way down the action, if inserted square to the receiver, but I can run it further down the left hand side if I hold it at a 45 deg angle.  
 
The firing pin is striking low and left, but is deep with no misfires. Love the gun but I want to tighten this grouping up.
 
The load is 50 gr V-Max over 35 gr of 4064 with COAL of 2.45 in a RP case. Middle of the road, right? Brass needs to be trimmed often and requires 2X into the sizing die for consistent latchup.  
   
Would honing the pivot channel help? The groups are not impressive, but show hints of some potential:
 

 
I've been soaking up the collective advice available here. Bench shooting is done resting near the pivot. I'm trying to follow through with my trigger pull.
 
Factory ammo ( Remmy 55gr SP ) will group around an 1.5" with a few flyers. Should I just continue to tweak this load, or is the 0.0015 a factor in the overall accuracy of the rifle?  
 
Thanks,
 
Rick

[quickdtoo]

Rick,

The vertical stringing is an issue I'm dealing with on my .243 ultra, it will print a nice 1/2" clover leaf or 2 shots touching, then the 3rd and successive shots start climbing as the barrel warms with more than one type of ammo. I'm trying different "O"rings on the forend stud and using shim material between the spacer and forend to change tension on the barrel. The shim material I'm using is aluminum furnace tape cut to the shape of the spacer, it's .004" thick and does tighten the forend, but too much will cause the vertical stringing, there is a sweet spot tha must be found between too loose and too tight.

Hope this helps,

Tim

[cheatermk3]

I'm not an expert on the handirifle or any other firearm, but I do have some experience making ammo.

Are you F/L sizing your fired brass?  If you are, stop,  Size just enuff of the neck to hold the bullet you're using.  Excessive case stretching is an indication of poor fit, too hot a load, or both.  

Sometimes vertical stringing means that you should increase your powder charge.  If you're not seeing flattened primers it should be ok to cautiously work up 1/2 a grain or so at a time; if you do this and the groups get round instead of strung out in a vertical line, you're on the right track.  It's been my experience that the best accuracy usually comes a few grains below maximum.  I'm referring to max in your chamber, not what's in the book.  Your results may vary considerably from the book loads.
You may see the load you're using as middle of the road, but unless you've chronographed it you're guessing.  For instance, the Nosler book lists their 50 grain ballistic tip in Winchester cases over 34.5 grains of IMR-4064 as a max load.  

Before you go cutting/shimming your rifle, you might want to call customer service at the factory and see what they have to say.  I'm not very good with tools so if i diagnose a problem like a bad or off-center lockup I consult a trusted professional.  Fortunately for me there's one a few miles from me.  If your rifle is not locking up square, I don't think a shim is going to fix it.

JMHO.

[218Bee]

Thanks guy,
 
Quick,  
 
The synthetic fore end has a more conical shape to the lug hole. The "o" ring trick didn't help. I've tried adjusting the lug screw tension, it's a short trip from "tight" tight to "too" loose. There isn't a shim on this fore end, but I'll try  a thin layer of material on the "bearing" side to try to tighten the gap.
 
cheatermk3,
 
I'm afraid I have to FL size or the round won't chamber. My Swede loves a neck sized case. I bought a neck sizing die hope to do the same for this gun. No can do. Lockup is not consistent without full sizing, even to the point of two trips through the sizing die for a consistent lockup.  
 
My manuals showed room left at 35 gr, but your right. I just check the IMR online manual and with a Sierra 50 gr their max is 35gr  :shock:  I worked up to this load and I'm not seeing any obvious pressure signs. Primers still have a nice radius, no cratering, extraction is easy.  

Seems that either the chamber is tight or my die is large. I've never had to run a case through the sizer twice. BTW my rounds chamber easily in my bud's Savage.

 
Thanks again,
 
Rick

[quickdtoo]

Rick, disregard the forend treatment for the synthetic forend, I forgot about the synth stocks, all of my centerfires are wood or laminate which have a separate spacer. If you have another forend, you might try it to see if it helps. Cheatermk3 is right about changing the pivot, that will make the barrel loose on the frame, best to send it to H&R with a target to see if they can fix the problem if the headspace is the problem which I don't think it is. You might hone the latch shelf on the barrel below the ejector/extractor to see if you can get a slightly better lock up. If you smoke the latch shelf and check the latch engagement, you should see approx 1/8" deep or slightly more mark in the soot after locking it up.

[James B]

Brass growing in length is typical of the 22-250. This its its weak point in any 22-250. The best cure for this and a great conversion is to get it reamed to 22-250 AI. This will almost completely end the problem while improving performance. Like to almost 220 Swift velocities.

[cheatermk3]

After sleeping on this, it seems to me that what you're seeing with your feeler gauges, is evidence that something is causing your rifle to lock up off-center, or at least that's where it ends up upon firing.

I can think of a couple of flaws that could be causing this, such as the holes for the pin(hinge pin) being bored slightly out of square to the axis of the receiver, fore-and-aft, so that the rifle locks up square but twists under pressure during firing.  Another would be the underlug being welded other than in perfect alignment with the axis of the bore; seems like this would show up in the latch's engagement being more on one side of the shelf than the other; not definitive since something else may cause this too.

Just some thoughts that may or may not be relevant.  

Keep us posted on what develops.

[218Bee]

That makes sense to me MK3, I've been searching for a post here about off-center firing pin hit and it's relation to the pivot pin/lug relationship. Seen it before but can't find it at the moment.
 
The latch seems to lack the 1/8 inch depth, more like a  1/16". I have some fine stones. Maybe that will improve latchup.
 
I'll concentrate on some more load workup. My manuals are listing up to 37gr 4064 as max so, as long as my pressure signs are good, I think 35.5 isn't unreasonable. There is more work to be done on COAL as well.
 
I appreciate the help,
 
Rick.... (puts dremel tool away)
 
 

[Casefiller]

Mr. Bee,

    I also have a Handi in 22-250  After returning from the range 2 nights ago , Here is my loading data, I will first mention that I too Full Length size all of my brass for the Handi. Primers: CCI BR LR
Powder: Varget, 34.0 gr.   Bullet : Nosler 40 gr.  COAL:  2.500   Case: Frontier or Remington, trimmed, C&D
From the Board here I have learned that the 40 gr,. bullet seems to perform the best out of this caliber for the Handi Rifle.

Second statement : How are you fixed for 218 Bee brass ?

CF

[218Bee]

Thanks CF, I picked up a pound of Varget this evening. I've heard a lot of good things about it. I have to call around area to locate some 40 grainers.
Tough to find bullets out here in the sticks.

I've got about 30 Bee cases left. Lots of fun to load for. I'd forgotten how fast you go thriugh powder at 35 grains a clip. That lil Bee makes a tin go a loooong way. I load for a Model 43 that saw very little use over its first  40 years. Deadly on woodchucks out to 150 yards.

Rick

[Ricci Price]

Redone my lug not long ago (hinge pin fit area, filled in with a weld and remilled to get proper fit, I like to tinker) there is a way to do it but it takes alot of tooling and some swanky welding set-up (don't want to get it too hot, kept the inside chamber area cool while welding). And yes my firing pin was off-center before this two week  journey. I'd say send it back if don't want to tinker with it. Mine was actually tight on the left side of the pin and .002 loose on right during lock-up. Also make sure it locks up all the way when you close it, you can tell if it is, by looking at the release button and see if it has play in it after closing. Could also have tooling marks on the latch area not allowing the latch to engage all the way. there is not much room in this area for clean up just polish lightly don't take any metal off, just polish. Like Ol Fred said lock-up is everything.

[218Bee]

Thanks, Ricci.

I fall into the "If it ain't broke fix it till it is" group.

That kind of work is out of my league, though. The lockup is tight before firing, in fact I tried shimimg the left side of the lug with foil (.0005) and the action wouldn't latch.

I've stayed out of the receiver, lots of small parts for me to lose/bend. I never did flush the receiver out, I'll do that.

Rick

[cheatermk3]

218 BEE said:

I'm afraid I have to FL size or the round won't chamber. My Swede loves a neck sized case. I bought a neck sizing die hope to do the same for this gun. No can do. Lockup is not consistent without full sizing, even to the point of two trips through the sizing die for a consistent lockup.

Rick,
I just re-read your post, and it dawned on me that, your rifle's action must be stretching and twisting under the pressure of the cartridge firing; it may be doing this to the point that the fired case it enough out of "plumb" that you have to straighten it out, or reduce it's diameter enough, so thai it will go back into the chamber after being reloaded.

Think about it...you chamber a round, close the action, it locks up.  Then, you fire it, and(if I'm understanding what you've posted correctly) the fired case extracts/ejects without sticking.  

Then, you have to F/L size it 2X before it will go back into the chamber??  That ain't right.  You should be able to re-chamber the fired case, no problem.  Have you tried putting the fired case back into the chamber?  I bet it will only go back in and lockup if it is re-inserted in the same orientation as it was in when fired.  You could prove this very easily, I think.  If this is the case, I think(my opinion here) that the rifle is defective and should be returned to the factory with a detailed note describing the problem.

You might want to call customer service and talk it over with one of the reps. first and see what they say.  Their official policy is factory ammo only, but...

[Ricci Price]

Yep, I'm with you cheatermk3

[218Bee]

I'm heading to the range this PM. I've gotten into the habit of indexing the round before firing, so I'll test your theory cheatermk3.

Thanks,

Rick

[safetysheriff]

Hello Bee'  

I'm asking you to patiently do the following: abandon the idea of working on the barrel, the breech, or the extractor housing.

I'm willing to bet that you've got a good rifle.

We recently worked up loads for a friend's .22-250 that will put three shots inside of a dime from a 22" barrel at 72 yds.....using the bulk powder wc-846 {which approximates Hodgdon's BL-C(2)}, CCI primers and 60 grain Hornady spire points in Winchester brass.   I think we loaded 33.5 and 33.7 gr's of the WC-846 to get that accuracy...but my buddy has the records at his house now.    

The problem with sizing the brass, I'm guessing, comes from you too lightly contacting the shell holder against the full-length die.    You've got to 'bump' the die harder, I'm guessing, with the shell holder: by turning the die down into the press another 1/8 to 1/4 turn to start.    See if that doesn't help to set back the shoulder a little more and make it easier to chamber the round.    Don't worry about damaging the press.   Also, use a good lubricant inside the case neck to keep the expander ball from dragging against it and pulling on the neck/shoulder.     Put the lube down where the neck meets the shoulder so the expander ball picks it up on the way out of the brass.

I'd bet that many, many rifles and shotguns and handguns do not center their firing pin strikes on the primer.    That's not necessarily a problem and probably why one primer mfr' developed a different primer anvil to enlargen the sweet spot that would allow firing pins to ignite their primers.   Wasn't it CCI that did this some time back.....though it may have been another one that I can't remember right now.   (one of 'em did it for sure)  

Hope this helps, sincerely believing you've got a good barrel and frame,

SS'    :wink:

[218Bee]

Thanks SS,

Your right, I just installed a secondhand RCBS JR2. Although I had turned the die down a full 1/3 beyond contact with the die, my old Lyman All-American had to much spring. The RCBS "O" press fully sizes the brass on the first pass. The Lyman is now relegated to seating bullets, the turret will be handi for that, holding all the seating dies I load for.

I'm wondering if the synthetic fore end has a role here. I had tried to relieve some binding by sanding the arc near the frame. I have a thin shim there to regain the tight feel when the action is open.

Quick touched on it. The fore screw has a short throw between "tight" and "sloppy". I've focused on the "post-fire" gap, thinking that was the problem. I think it's time to replace the forearm with good old wood.

Cheatermk3.. I can fully rechamber the spent round if indexed the same as fired. The spent round will chamber if rotated, but it's not a full lock. the action lever is locked but is flush with the frame not in the full lock with the lever above the frame.

I thank you all for your time and patience. :m:

Rick

[cheatermk3]

218 Bee said:

"...I can fully rechamber the spent round if indexed the same as fired. The spent round will chamber if rotated, but it's not a full lock. the action lever is locked but is flush with the frame not in the full lock with the lever above the frame. "

Rick, I hate to sound like a broken record, but think about this:
Your fired cases will not chamber and allow full lockup, unless they are properly indexed.  How can this be?  They should go back into the hole they just came out of...and so they do, if they're properly indexed.  Your rifle is not locking up as it should, which is allowing the pressure at the moment of firing to spring the action enough so that the case head is no longer aligned with the axis of the bore.  Then you F/L size the case, which allows it to be chambered again.  But I doubt that the head of the case is being completely re-aligned properly.  This in itself could be the root of the stringing you're seeing in your loads.  You probably already know that alignment, of the bullet and the case, with the axis of the bore, is a huge factor in repeatability, hence accuracy.  This is the reason that neck-sized cases are more accurate than F/L or new factory ammo--they are fitted to the chamber by fireforming so they are more perfectly aligned with the axis of the bore.   Your fired cases will always have that mis-alignment built into them unless you can correct whatever it may turn out to be that is causing your action to do this.

 But there's a bigger problem.

I'll bet that your cases are growing as much as .005" after being sized;  this would be due to the extra stretching in the web area at the moment of maximum pressure.  At this moment, your action is opening slightly, twisting, this must be why the fired case has to be indexed before the action will lockup.  Even then, it's not fully locking up or you'd be seeing better engagement of the latch in it's recess in the underlug.  

So, if your overworked  brass should fail, and you have a head separation, it will happen with the action partially open.  This would not be a good thing.

I hate the thought of having to send a rifle to the manufacturer for repair, but I strongly urge you to do so.  Fiddling with or replacing the forend is not going to solve the problem.  NEF will take care of you, to the point of buying back the rifle for what you paid for it, should it come to that.  Maybe all it needs is to have the latch itself replaced.  Maybe the rifle was assembled, and never final fitted.  I'll bet that this happens a lot--they put the parts together, and the rifle closes and locks up.  Someone using factory ammo exclusively would  never know the difference.

Maybe all you need to do is back off your powder charge a bit until you no longer see this happening.  One thing is for sure, in my opinion--you'll never get the best the rifle has to offer in accuracy if you can't use fireformed, neck-sized brass for your reloads.

[218Bee]

A quick update:
 
I shifted to a 40gr V-Max and 34gr Varget seated to 2.460:

 
No gap after firing. Still a vertical string, but not as severe. As I worked up to 37 grains accuracy degraded and at 37 I had a 0.0015 gap. As cheatermk3 mentioned, although the Sierra manual says there's lots of room to go, this gun doesn't like it at all.
 
Thanks to Casefiller for the load. I'll review my 55 gr V-Max loads and turn them down substantially. Maybe bedding the foreend will help the vertical string.
 
Have a great weekend,
 
Rick

[cheatermk3]

Bee, it's great to hear that you've got a handle on your handi.  That's a much better looking group than the first one you posted, even if it's stringing, it ain't too shabby.

Feels good, don't it?

[218Bee]

Sure does :grin:  
 
Now to get that Postal Match card punched!!
 
Thanks guys, for all your help!
 
Rick

[safetysheriff]

218Bee'

I have never worked with a synthetic-stocked Handi'.    (I'm not sure they'd balance as well as the wooden-stocked variety.)

On the rifles I've owned I pulled the plastic retainer at the back of the forearm and replaced the short factory screws with longer, somewhat-larger screws and then put grease on that plastic/nylon piece.    Remember, however, that the barrel is held in place against the standing breech by the hinge pin, the ejector housing, and the locking mechanism that locks down the back of that housing.   The forearm has nothing to do with keeping the barrel in place once it is locked up and ready to fire.

The forearm screw goes quickly from tight to sloppy because it was made with a course thread.....with no problem there.   I tighten mine down reasonably with a small dab of loctite on them.    No problem with any so far.

While Varget may now be a fully-refined product, some lots of it had (may still have?) rather wide variations in its performance from what I've read elsewhere on the web -- including www.long-range.com and www.nationalmatch.us .  The speed of the powder seemed to vary from one lot to the next.....

Keep up the progress and let us know some more.

Take care,

SS'