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Author Topic: rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2  (Read 812 times)

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Offline Chainsaw

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« on: May 27, 2005, 03:47:19 PM »
magvance posted a question about the suitability of the 223 on a shotgun frame.

My question is similar: The combo guns from the pre-bankrupt H&R offered 30-30 and some other offerings. The 30-30 operates in the 38,000 CUP area, which is a lot more than the stated 12,000 psi of the shotgun frame. I have an older combo unit with the 30-30 and 20 ga. barrels. Is the receiver on this any different than the SB-1 shotgun frame? Any ideas out there................Chainsaw
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Offline MSP Ret

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2005, 04:06:27 PM »
Yes, I have an idea, for what it's worth. The older combo guns, just like the new combo guns, were made on rifle strength (currently referred to as SB2) recievers....so, don't put a rifle barrel on a shotgun reciever!!! If you want to put a shotgun barrel on a rifle frame and it fits, fine, do it, but not the other way around  :shock: ....<><....  :money:
Also Chainsaw, I have an earlier rifle reciever that H&R will only fit certain rifle barrels to, .223, 45-70, 30-30 and shotgun barrels all OK. "High intensity" rifle barrels are a no-go. I would think it is because the earlier rifle recievers are not strong enough fo the newer barrels, .270, .280, .308,  30-06, 7mm-08 etc....<><....  :money:
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Offline JPH45

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2005, 04:27:29 PM »
Can I have the peices?


(Sorry, just couldn't resist, my apologies)
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Offline Leftoverdj

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2005, 05:28:31 PM »
H&R put .223 barrels on shotgun actions before they made anything BUT shotgun actions, in the early '70s. I believe those actions were made from mallable iron. I know they were weaker than even the SB-1 action.

The relevant comparison is not PSI or CUP, but case head thrust. The 12 gauge may run only about 12k psi, but the area against which that pressure pushes is several times that of the .223 so that the two case head thrusts are fairly close.
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Offline mag41vance

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2005, 12:24:33 AM »
Not wanting to experiment on a friend, I let him take my sb2 reciever until his gets back from H&R. We tried it yesterday and he is encouraged by the first shooting of his .223 ultra with factory ammo.
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Offline kenbev

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sb2 frame
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2005, 01:20:30 AM »
My first Handi was a 270 and H&R will only fit 223, 30-30, and 45-70 barrels to it. I have had it several years....
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Offline Chainsaw

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Re: sb2 frame
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2005, 04:41:14 AM »
Quote from: kenbev
My first Handi was a 270 and H&R will only fit 223, 30-30, and 45-70 barrels to it. I have had it several years....



Go figure on that. I don't think we will ever know for sure what strength these frames/receivers are. I am not advocating anything, but the strength of the combo receiver I own is puzzling. :? .............Chainsaw
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Offline tinker2584

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Action strenth
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2005, 05:30:02 AM »
Gentlemen, this topic is always interesting to discuss. Mainly, how does pressure act on an action?
Firstly, the barrel must contain the forces acting upon it radially, assuming you are using a modern barrel and modern steels, this will present no problems using standard rifle pressures.
Secondly, the action must be able to support the rearward thrust of the cartridge pressure.   This can be easily calculated by using F=PxA, where F is measured in pounds(thrust), P is chamber pressure and A is internal area of the base of the cartridge.Do the math on a 12 ga and a 45/70. You'll be surprised.  

Thrust on actions has been experimented upon before.  Check out some articles on the net  about it, search for Ackley improved cartridges, barrel inserts,and bolt thrust.

Rifle barrel inserts are avalible here,  http://www.mcace.com
I'm not 100% sure but I believe his inserts were tested on a H+R Topper 12ga
Do a search on this site for rifle from shotgun and a members search for singleshot (no it's not me) http://www.homegunsmith.com/

After reading some of this info I hope it will help you rethink how  pressure acually acts on a action.

Frank
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Offline Robert

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2005, 05:53:21 AM »
Just for comparison.  I have been shooting Thompson Contenders for many years.  .223 is a very common chambering for them, I have had a few and the function well if you don't 'hot-rod' loads, factory ammo also works nice.  However...Thompson will not chamber one of these frames even in 20 gauge, and certainly not 12 gauge.  I am certainly NOT endorsing putting rifle barrels on shotgun frames....I just thought it interesting that one manufacturer considers it too much pressure with a .223 on a shotgun frame, and the other manufacturer considers a shotgun too much on their frame.
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Offline Mac11700

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2005, 06:18:24 AM »
One of the main reasons NEF WON'T endorse doing this...is because of the mailable steel used for many years by H&R. and they aren't about to take the chance of getting anyone hurt...or ruining someones frame.....I'm not saying it won't work...what I am saying is there is always the possibility of ruining the frame.I spoke with ACE on his barrel inserts...and elected not to go that route...others have with good results...but...I elect not to. I have decided to rebore and rechamber to the newer steel receivers...just to play it safe.....and for the small cost these guns actually cost...it really doesn't make good sense to try it any other way...as the old saying goes..." It only takes 1 time to get hurt"...
 
Mac
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Offline Robert

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2005, 10:36:01 AM »
I wholeheartedly agree.  There is No reason for it with the cost of these things.  I certainly would not encourage anyone on GBO to do so.  However...it is a good thing that this has popped up a few times on here and it can be thought out together.  Maybe it will prevent someone from being injured.
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Offline mag41vance

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rifle barrel on a shotgun frame-part 2
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2005, 01:19:38 PM »
The reason that I posted the original question was to allow a friend to shoot his new .223 barrel while he was waiting on his (never shot with) receiver to get back from H&R with his .357 barrel.
 I have 6 NEF shotguns and rifles, and this was his first NEF. I decided based on the good opinions and suggestions not to risk a shotgun frame and he is shooting with my sb2 frame (with good results) while his is at NEF.
  I've been a member here at Graybeards since the original H&R talk bellied up, and I was a member there for about a year. This forum is in my opinion the best I've used, in that all the guys and gals here seem to get along without axe grinding about things that don't matter much to begin with.

 H&R NEF owners are very common sense type people. Glad to be a part!!

 I have a feeling my friend will be just as hooked on the NEF handi's as we all are.

  RV
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