Author Topic: Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposit area.  (Read 963 times)

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Offline Dand

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposit area.
« on: November 01, 2005, 10:23:45 PM »
A young lady hiked around and did a photo essay of the proposed Pebble Copper mine site.  Here is a link to it.

http://www.aktrekking.com/pebble/PebbleEssay4.html

I hope folks are following this thing. Its really alarming to me.  KTUU is doing a 2 part news piece on it, today and tomorrow.  Here is a link to the first part:
Debate begins over environmental effect of Pebble Mine
Tuesday, November 1, 2005 - by Jason Moore
http://www.ktuu.com/cms/templates/master.asp?articleid=1586&zoneid=1

And would you believe it in this day?  Northern Dynasty is holding meetings with villagers in Anchorage paying travel, private hotel rooms, luncheons, and  envelopes with $600 CASH handed out!  I'll be submitting a letter to the Daily News asking for a clean and clear accounting of that activity.

If you like to hunt and fish in this area you better take this thing seriously.  I don't think the miners are capable of building a truly safe and responsible mine on this site.  I haven't been able to locate a safe and responsibly run mine anywhere and Northern Dynasty sure isn't pointing to any single good example of similar size.  They are making promises the can't keep and they won't be there to keep them.  Just talk to folks in Montana - they heard the same rap in the early 80's and now they are paying through the nose for the messes left behind.  While the miners are gone.
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Offline Yukon Jack

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Re: Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposit area.
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2005, 11:50:16 AM »
Quote from: Dand
I don't think the miners are capable of building a truly safe and responsible mine on this site.  I haven't been able to locate a safe and responsibly run mine anywhere and Northern Dynasty sure isn't pointing to any single good example of similar size.  They are making promises the can't keep and they won't be there to keep them.  Just talk to folks in Montana - they heard the same rap in the early 80's and now they are paying through the nose for the messes left behind.  While the miners are gone.

I'd like to think everyone will keep an open mind and see what the EIS and ND (they aren't going to develop this project, it will be someone else) plans and design are before jumping to too many conclusions.

This project can be done in a safe and sensitive manner, whether that is economical or will be done, well, let's wait for the EIS and the plans.

Offline Yukon Jack

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2005, 12:09:03 PM »
I read the girl's article and to be honest, it's as one sided as a piece written by PETA about hunting.  Let's wait and see what the facts are.

Offline Dand

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yeah its one sided but I hoped to show some photos
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2005, 07:51:28 AM »
Yes its certainly one sided.  The main point was to show folks what it look like now.  Now imagine a pit 3 miles long 1.5 wide and with recent core information as much as 2000 feet deep.  This thing will rival Bingham Canyon in Utah.  Not to mention the tailings piles and settlement ponds which will wipe out a really large area.

I seriously doubt miners are capable of developing this responsibly. I have not been able to find a mine anywhere in the world approaching this size that does not have significant pollution problems.  And most of those mines are in arrid places that don't get rains like this area does in August and September.  I've had to pull my boat over and wait to be able to see the river. It pours.  And all that water will have to be pumped somewhere.  Most likely it will find its way into these major salmon rivers carrying copper and other metal residues that kill fish.

I have held off getting too fired up for over a year trying to educate myself.  I feel I have to speak out now.  

Also keep in mind that it appears a lot of mines fire up and go broke, leaving tax payers to pay HUGE clean up costs, often times FOREVER into the future.
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liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Yukon Jack

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2005, 10:06:52 AM »
And the Fort Knox mine near Fairbanks has Grayling (!) taking up residence in their tailings ponds.  Grayling are very susceptible, more than any of our other idigenious fish to pollutants, especially heavy metals.  Point is, whether ND develops this or if another, larger company, buys them out, mining can be conducted without destroying the surrounding area.  Mines today are not developed and operated like mines of the past, there are very strict regs to follow and adhere to in every facet of the operation.  Fact is, we don't know yet what the EIS will show, what the company will be restricted to do, or their operating plan.  To say they can't do this without messing everything else up is not right.  If you don't want to see, say that, don't try to mislead anyone by jumping to conclusions before all the facts are in.

If the environmental risk proves too much, I'll side with you, but we don't know that yet.

Offline Sourdough

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2005, 01:44:05 PM »
It's up to us to see that they do the job right, and that there are proper safeguards inplace to prevent abuse.  We can't keep Alaska locked up for ever.  Those photos look just like anywhere else you go in this great and large state.  You see the same sites along the Wood River, In the Eurekia area, and even on the Keni.  Everywhere you go is like that, with very little so called spoiled areas in this state.
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Offline Daveinthebush

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Not voicing an opinion either way
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2005, 02:52:43 PM »
Not voicing an opinion either way but if the mining for what man needs is not done in this country under the currnet regulations reguired, it is going to get done in some other country where there are no regulations and the impact on the enviroment will be much greater.
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Offline akpls

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2005, 06:16:45 AM »
I can show you a couple of photos of what a "reclaimed" open pit tungsten mine looks like in Namibia.  It doesn't even come close to what the mining companies have to do here for reclamation.

Offline cattail

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2005, 07:45:03 AM »
I grew up in shaft mine country where the decimation of the surrounding country was incredible. I therefor am very fearful of Pebble but also feel that there is no stopping it. I feel the best thing we can do is to train our local residents as best we can to the hazzards of the mine and to encourage them work in the mines. Having them working in the mines is one of our surest safegaurds. I know very few who will stand by and allow the mines to ruin the salmon runs we all depend on so much. Can it be done safely? I sure as heck hope so but sure have my doubts. There is a split in Bristol Bay about the development. The biggest problem we face is the mine will benifit the Cook Intlet region as much or more then BB  but the negative effects of the mine will pirmarly be seen in Bristol Bay and its rivers. We need to really keep our eyes wide open and do our best to police what I am afraid is inevitable and that is the project will go forward.

Offline Dand

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So Alaska's safeguards are enough?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2005, 09:19:29 AM »
read the following and see if you still believe "modern mines" are fine and that Alaska's regulations are sufficient to protect our environment.  This is why I'm spun up on Pebble.  Miners make the same promises over and over and break them as fast as they make them.

Pebble is not unstoppable.  It faces HUGE financial, infrastructure, and regulatory obstacles. Ones that might stop it or bankrupt it half born.

Take into consideration too that at the same time honchos at Northern Dynasty were promising no mine in Upper Talarik Cr. drainage, their drill crews were boring test holes in that very drainage - and that is where the lastest deepest and richest deposits have been found this fall. They should have had the decency to at least note they were exploring the drainage.  

So how can we trust them? At least in the case below there was a clean up and closure.  But Illinois is nowhere near the scale of Pebble.

Gold mine teaches lessons on cleanup
ILLINOIS CREEK: Tab won't be paid by state.

By PAULA DOBBYN
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: November 4, 2005)

The troubled life of Illinois Creek gold mine finally expired last month after years of high drama, including a bankruptcy, several failed efforts to restart production and a bond too small to cover cleanup costs.

Reclamation -- the industry term for cleanup and shutdown -- officially wrapped up at the heap-leach mine in October, said Harry Noah, of American Reclamation Group, on Thursday. Noah is a former Alaska commissioner of natural resources.

The Illinois Creek experience taught state mining officials some hard lessons about the risks involved with mining projects and how to avoid leaving taxpayers with the tab of mine closure, said Bob Loeffler, former state director of mining, land and water. In Illinois Creek's case, no public funds were needed for reclamation. But for a long time, it wasn't clear that would happen.

"I believe I'll live two years less because of this mine," said Loeffler, who announced his resignation from the Alaska Department of Natural Resources last week.

Loeffler, who permitted the mine, sweated through the whole Illinois Creek fiasco.

"I woke up a lot of nights, worrying," he said Thursday over a beer in the bar of the Sheraton Anchorage Hotel where the Alaska Miners Association is holding its annual conference this week. Earlier, he gave a speech about the lessons learned at Illinois Creek.

The mine, located about 50 miles southwest of Galena, started producing gold in 1997. It was supposed to yield 340,000 ounces of gold over six to eight years. But within months of getting its permits in 1996, the operator, USMX of Alaska Inc., ran into construction delays and other troubles. USMX, a subsidiary of Dakota Mining Corp. of Denver, declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1998.

The mining company had posted a reclamation bond of $1.6 million, intended to cover the costs of closing the mine and putting the land back in order should the firm become insolvent. The amount should have been twice that, Loeffler said. In 1999, the state told the operators to increase the bond to $2.6 million. It never happened, he said.

The bankruptcy reorganization failed and attempts by a bank to take over and operate Illinois Creek also dead-ended.

The state was left to run the mine for a time while it sought a new operator that would produce gold or reclaim the site.

It was a bleak time for Loeffler. Not only was the mine lacking sufficient bonding and the operator insolvent, liens on the equipment and 60 million gallons of cyanide-laden waste water had to be dealt with.

DNR officials asked the attorney general's office to pass an emergency regulation to allow the agency to lease Illinois Creek to new operators. The Department of Law balked, saying there was no emergency, Loeffler said.

John Shively, resources commissioner at the time, went nuts and harangued the attorney general's office until they declared an emergency, Loeffler recalled.

But the new company that took over in 1999, Viceroy Resources, abandoned the mine the next year.

Noah and business partner Ken Pohle stepped in and struck an agreement with DNR to run the mine. The two took a substantial risk to do so, contributing private capital and mortgaging houses and other assets, Loeffler said. The key for the state was that Noah and Pohle's American Reclamation Group would reap no profit until the state's reclamation requirements were fulfilled.

The firm used hydrogen peroxide to neutralize the cyanide-laden water, capped the processing reservoir and revegetated the area. The company also contributed $200,000 to a trust fund to monitor Illinois Creek in the future. The fund totals $838,000 and is more than adequate, Loeffler said.

Although what happened at Illinois Creek is not uncommon in the Western United States, it was Alaska's first experience dealing with a large mine bankruptcy. As a result, DNR learned that the size of reclamation bonds matters and that government must act quickly when bankruptcies occur, Loeffler said.

"It's too bad that they had to go through that, but they made it work," said Steve Borell, executive director of the Alaska Miners Association.
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liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Yukon Jack

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Photos and info of the Pebble Copper deposi
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2005, 02:54:22 PM »
There were some hard lessons learned from that project, there's no question, but they were learned.  There's no way the State will enter into another agreement like that without a suitable bond requirement.  Taxpayers were not left on the hook and the issues were worked out.  Mines can be handled properly.

I still think you're jumping the gun, but you do have valid concerns.  We just can't condemn a project before all the facts are in.

Unless, of course, you want to give up everything you own that has ever been mined or is produced with anything that has ever been mined.  From boat props to vegetables, mining plays an important role in our lives.  If everyone responded that there's no way a mine could be done, we'd all be in a world of hurt.  Just because this one is in your backyard doesn't mean all the others are not in someone else's backyard.  Crow Creek is in mine.  Matter of fact, this entire valley has been mined and clearcut, as well as most of the Prince William Sound and upper reaches of the Copper River.