Author Topic: Do You Ever Wonder Why......... (Read 1722 times)

Lawdog · « **on:** May 20, 2005, 09:30:02 AM »

With all the new cartridges that have been introduced I get to wondering, why haven't there been any NEW cartridges in .358 caliber introduced? Any ideas why and what would you introduce if you could? Lawdog

#1shooter · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2005, 10:16:40 AM »

Hi,I believe the reason that there have not been more is because of lack of popularity,judgeing from my own wants if I want a deer gun I want something that shoots flatter than is typical of 35,s ,the only way i can get flat trajectory out of a 35 is to go with a hard kicking gunsuchas the 350 mag or whelen etc.Now If i want a significant step up in bullet diameter or weight then I will go to something like a 44 mag ,444marlin,45-70 etc for a short range THUMPER ,in addition the ammo will be readily availible factory loaded. In short the only really available and popular 35 is the remington which makes a decent short range deer catridge,in short if a person wants long range performance to get it using a 35 one has to use heavy bullets with a high ballistictic coefficient at high velocities all which add up to high recoil and if a person wants a significant step up in diameter and weight over the 308 diameter for example then they normally want something A LOT bigger,so the way I see it the 35 caliber other than the 35 rem are neither fish nor fowl with a significant lack of popularity and that is why arms makers who are in buisness to by and large make money do not offer more 35,s. thanks,CRAIG

Zcarp2 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2005, 11:21:56 AM »

I'll have to agree with Craig.

I was lusting after a 358 Winchester for plinking with .357 cast bullets. And realized that at low velocity, a .357 or a Maximum in a rifle is what I really needed. There is a percieved need, but someone won'tl sell me a Greener Falling Block fully custom .357 that shoots oh-so-sweet. Sorry, personal problem... (I do get to visit it occasionally)

The 30 calibers are plentiful and cheap. And the 7mm's get the press. Small and fast is what is popular.

Be patient - it'll happen. Zcarp2

DanP · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2005, 02:37:22 PM »

The Whelan does it... Otherwise, you can look at the 350 Rem Mag. Winchester did not find it worthwhile trying to get energy out of the .338 in a WSM, so they did it with a 32 caliber bullet. [on the side, 7mm rem mag, .338 win mag, and .458 win mag are all based on the same case size; even powder charges aren't wildly different; the efficiency of energy transfer to wider-based bullets in the same case is striking: from 7mm to .338 to .458, or from .25-06 to .30-06 to .35 whelan.] So I've wondered if short cases start to fall down on wider, heavier bullets?

Dan

Mac11700 · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2005, 08:07:55 AM »

I don't really know how new it is...but if I really wanted a rifle to use a 35 caliber...and wanted a real heavy hitter...I think I might go with one like the 358 Shooting Times Alaskan...I've never owned one...but it certainly does look interesting...a 225 grain partiton at close to 3100 fps...or a 250 grain sat 2900fps...certainly aught to work on just about anything...

Mac

kombi1976 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 26, 2005, 02:32:31 PM »

Ummm, I think the reason is that no one seems to be buying them. :|

Slamfire · « **Reply #6 on:** May 27, 2005, 06:10:16 PM »

Quote from: kombi1976

Ummm, I think the reason is that no one seems to be buying them. :|

Probably because most fellahs want to keep the fillings in their teeth, they cost a lot these days. :-D

jro45 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2005, 05:10:11 AM »

You know when I go to the range to shoot i don't see any young people shooting at all. What I've heard is that the next generation isn't in to guns and hunting.

At least its that way on the east coast. This may be one reason that you don't see any changes in the gun you spoke of other than the STA. Something to think about.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 29, 2005, 03:11:44 PM »

In terms of 35 cal tooth rattlers the .358 Norma Mag is a really underated cartridge, much like the 308 Norma these days.
Before the advent of the 300 Win it was regarded as almost the best in the 308 cal but now......well, they're regarded as curios.
It's small wonder though that folks don't use the 358 Norma.
If you're loading for a 375H&H you can use smaller projectiles and download to get the same sort of force.

Ramrod · « **Reply #9 on:** May 29, 2005, 03:43:07 PM »

No need for me to add anything here. In his two posts, kombi1976 has answered Lawdog's question perfectly.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2005, 05:38:37 PM »

Aw shucks, Ramrod you makin' me feel all bashful.... :oops: :wink:

BTW, #1Shooter, I only regard the 45-70 as short range compared to a .270 or a 300 Win Mag.
It may have a more parabolic trajectory but it's in a different league to the 44 Mag and the 444 Marlin, especially if you know how to allow for it and/or you load it hot(a'la Ruger #1) .

Slamfire · « **Reply #11 on:** May 31, 2005, 09:39:56 PM »

The trouble with the .308 Norma ain't the cartridge, its them danged Shultz & Larsen rifles. Way too expensive for what you got. :roll:

DirtyHarry · « **Reply #12 on:** May 31, 2005, 10:03:28 PM »

The reason the .35 cal's do not interest me is that if I am hunting something that requires me to use something larger than a .30 cal I am just going to step on up to one of the Big Boy's and not take any chances.. :grin:

kombi1976 · « **Reply #13 on:** June 01, 2005, 02:07:37 PM »

Quote from: Slamfire

The trouble with the .308 Norma ain't the cartridge, its them danged Shultz & Larsen rifles. Way too expensive for what you got. :roll:

Perhaps, but I know a friend that has pre-64 Mod 70 in 308 Norma Magnum.
Surely Winchester and Shltz & Larsen weren't the only ones to chamber rifles for .308 Norma. :|

Lawdog · « **Reply #14 on:** June 02, 2005, 10:21:22 AM »

Quote from: kombi1976

Quote from: Slamfire
The trouble with the .308 Norma ain't the cartridge, its them danged Shultz & Larsen rifles. Way too expensive for what you got. :roll:

Perhaps, but I know a friend that has pre-64 Mod 70 in 308 Norma Magnum.
Surely Winchester and Shltz & Larsen weren't the only ones to chamber rifles for .308 Norma. :|

They weren't. My brother in-law has older Sako rifles that were factory chambered in the Norma Magnums(.308 & .358). Lawdog

S.S. · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2005, 03:14:47 PM »

As per a previous post,
We Gotta' do our part in getting young shooters into the sport....
I have taught many-many of them myself.....
There is no excuse why we as shooters do not pass our sport along...
Get your butts in gear guys, Take a kid to the range....
Sons, Daughters, Nephews and all their friends....
Get involved in things such as the local 4-H.
Our local 4-H shotgun team is heading for the regional
Trap Tournaments this summer......Next stop the Olympic team :grin:

cal sibley · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2005, 07:45:11 AM »

Most .35 caliber rifles are simply too much gun for me. I have 17 centerfire rifles and a good idea of what is apt to turn me into a spastic cripple. Anything above 7mm Rem. Mag. is a no no to me. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Todd1700 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2005, 05:17:09 PM »

Quote

Probably because most fellahs want to keep the fillings in their teeth, they cost a lot these days.

Yeah, filling damage and that whole risk of retinal detachment thing. :grin:

JD338 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2005, 04:36:11 AM »

I have never been able to understand why the .358 caliber never took off. I got a M700 Classic in 35 Whelan back in '88 and killed many WT Deer and a Black Bear. As I retold the hunting stories of how the game were hammered, one shot flop dead kills, people were impressed. Showing off targets of sub MOA raised eye brows. The introduction of Nosler partitions (I used the 225 gr PT) as well as Barnes and others gave the Whelan a performance boost.
With most people leaning towards the bigger magnums these days, a
35 WSM or 35 SAUM might give the 35's a good launch into popularity.
Your guess is as good as mine as to why the 35's are not popular. For those that have used them, we can just keep smiling and killing game.

I pulled a Black Bear tag here in MI and my 35 Whelan just might get the nod. (I am also considering my 338 RUM just because I really like it).

Regards,

JD338

kombi1976 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2005, 05:01:45 AM »

Y'know, in some respects 35 cal was successful but the big ones seem only to be the Whelen and .35 Remington, which could never be regarded as a high powered modern cartridge.
A lot of guys have taken deer and black bear with it though.
In fact I've seen plenty of posts on various forums boasting of this fact.
But while the Whelen is great it isn't that far from the .30-06 which happily takes the same game using 200gn or 220gn bullets with much more availability of ammo.
The '06 is also Old Faithful to lots of hunters so they couldn't see the point.
Remington already have a short action 35cal; the .350 Rem Mag, but it flopped as Remington released it around the same time they did the Whelen.
Surprise, surprise, the public went for the Whelen because it was an old and effective wildcat(as you've found) despite the fact the .350 has up to 100fps on it usually.
But again, the .35 Whelen is a necksize up from a 30-06.......Old Faithful again?! :?
Wildcatters are already going nuts on the .35 WSM.
In fact, a magazine here in Oz built a project deer hunting rifle for a "new" cartridge they liked to call .35 Sambar(after the species of deer).
And what was it?

? 35 WSM!! :roll:
I can't see it making it to a factory cartridge though.
After the .325 WSM I think Winchester might back a .375 WSM(which has been wildcatted too) and the SAUM cartridges are dying a slow death.
A .338 SAUM cartridge could save their bacon; people have after all been crying out for one, but they don't have the guts to back it.
For some reason Remington has real problems marketing cartridges they actually design themselves......not just legitimise old and popular wildcats.
Just check out the 6.8 Rem SPC some time in terms of sails possibilities and then see which rifles Remington are actually chambering for it. :?
But I digress.

Big Paulie · « **Reply #20 on:** July 12, 2005, 12:09:15 PM »

Well for goodness sakes. What deer or black bear have been killed with the 35 Whelen that you couldn't have killed just as dead with the 30-06?

Now I'm willing to admit that the Whelen may have "hammered" them, or "flipped them over" on the spot, but that just isn't the right test for choosing a big game cartridge. This may be why your friends didn't run out and buy a 35 Whelen, when they have been using a 30-06 or .308 Winchester sucessfully for all of these years. So what if the deer or black bear staggers for 25 or 30 yards before piling up dead? So what??? A 180 grain Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame from the 30-06 or .308 is the end for them, without using a Whelen.

Now I guess that for any type of grizzly, it would be a different story.
But not one in a thousand hunters will ever hunt a grizz. Sad, but true.

Best Regards, Big Paulie

Rummer · « **Reply #21 on:** July 12, 2005, 02:58:10 PM »

To answer the original question: The lack of available .358" rifles is best explained by a lack of demand.

I just had a .30-06 rebarreled to .35 whelen and I am quite happy with it. I came to the conclusion that for the kind of hunting I do which is for deer at under 200 yards (usually under 150) the whelen shoots plenty flat enough and makes a bigger hole. I really think (just one guy's opinion here) that a .358 is about the ideal bullet size to be used in an 06 case. The bullets available open up well at those velocities. There is plenty of shoulder to headspace on. Recoil is a little heavier with the whelen but not substantially. I can't think of anybody I have ever talked to who used a .358 caliber rifle and didn't like the way it performed on game.

For employment purposes I am moving to northern CA at the end of the year. Being out west may give me the opportunity to hunt more and bigger critters and I think a .35 would be just the ticket.

At any rate personal preference is as important as ballistic need when selecting a rifle. Particularly if that rifle is to be used for deer, since they are not that hard to kill. If need were the only determinant everybody would own a .30-06 or a .308 and that would be that.

John

kombi1976 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 12, 2005, 04:20:48 PM »

While the Whelen is a superb cartridge it does have the reputation of being harder to headspace than other cartridgesdue to its small shoulder & rimless design.
This is one of the reasons, IMO, why the .338-06 is growing more popular, apart from the fact that there are a wide range of .338 bullets.
And the move toward big magnums is more likely to exclude 35 cal than include it.
With the prominant cals in magnums being 338, 375, 416 and 458 I can't see a big move toward .35 cal, especially when recent bullet development has been around these cals.
But again, this is just IMO.