Author Topic: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?  (Read 16099 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« on: December 09, 2011, 10:46:19 AM »
In my recent mania surfing the web about knives and steels I've found a few good discussions of knife steels and uses.

Would there be interest in posting a sticky with links to some good sites or create a list of steels on this site?

After a while the names and numbers start to whirl in my head.  A sticky right here that would facilitate access to some good references might be handy.

Yeah I'vbe bookmarked some for my use but something shared might be nice for us less informed, and allow some discussion on the topic.

Just an idea.

thanks
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline charles p

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
  • Gender: Male
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2011, 04:05:14 AM »
F.Dick makes a white and black spring loaded steel.  The white is call the Hypersteel.  Forgot what the black model is named.  Finest product for keeping a knife razor sharp.  Truely a professional product.  If you only need one, I suggest the black model.

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2011, 05:32:03 PM »
Well I'm glad that I seem to have found a reasonable site to learn about the different types of steels used in knives.  I can see your concern for a degenerating discussion.  But I was thinking the sticky would be more a list of sites or sources with information about steel, a reference thread more than a discussion thread.


I've come across some discussions that show that steel composition isn't the whole game by any means.  Apparently, places like Buck Knife learned how to take a fairly common grade of blade steel, heat treat in a manner that made some really good knives with it.  While less expert or motivated outfits can start with premium steel and still only make a mediocre blade. 




Charles P. thanks I have seen references to the Hypersteel and had no idea where to find them.  But the main point of my post here was to suggest making a sticky thread that would provide refernce info on the various compositions of steel that are used to make knife blades, and a general discussion of the pros and cons of each type.  Maybe, since I found the links I posted earlier, that is enough. 


But I am steadily looking around for new or better sharpeners.  Get a few of these newer higher grade blades and the old carborundum stone ain't near enough. Once I had that little Kershaw and a Puma folder, I found the LoRay, now Lansky sharpener jig as the best / only way for me to get a truly good edge.  And once I did, with a little care the edge could last a long time with small touch ups.


Seems the moderator isn't too keen on the idea and that's fine.  Just a suggestion.  If others like it, or don't,  I encourage them to post their views.


GB is my favorite and almost only forum site I go to 'cause its well run and there's lots of civil knowledgeable contributors, like Joel.  So I like to learn from 'em.


thanks



NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2011, 08:41:01 AM »
When shopping for a decent quality hunting knife are their some steels that are best suited to the generic hunting tasks than others ?

In other words in trying to narrow down a particular selection of possible hunting knifes across major MFG's do most large scale Mfg's all utilize similar steel compositions in their hunting knives at various $$ clip levels ?
How does a laymen know if that 100.00 Knife from one MFG contains better steel compositions than lets say that 50.00 Knife from another?

What are some of the steels one should look for in various price ranges across all MFG's that might help laymen such as myself make informed decisions if laying out additional cash is truly buying a better product?.

Does $$ range across well know MFG;s truly correlate  into purchasing a better quality steels -  generally speaking? 
Any general guidelines?

Hope I am asking this correctly.

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Joel

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 06:25:21 PM »
Might as well just start.  For a first reference,  Dand's  is one good one; A.J. Russell lists one also.
http://zknives.com/knives/articles/knifesteelfaq.shtml
http://www.agrussell.com/Steel_Guide/a/73/
From Bob Engnath's last catalog.  Bob was a master grinder and steel worker who died much too soon.  The only comment not applicable anymore is about D-2 taking a lousy edge and holding it forever.  When properly heat treated(which took time to learn) to an Rc of 60-62, D-2 takes a great edge and holds it for a very long time.
http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm


As far as me answering questions about various steels, I can only reference the one's I've used; which is actually a fairly small list.
Carbon:
A-2
1095
0-1
0170-6/50100-b
1095 CV( I think I have that on my current Case CV)


Stainless/semi-stainless:
440A/B/C
420 Series
420HC
154CM/ATS-34
BG-42
D-2
CPM154CM
1.4110(current swiss army knives, Grohmann stainless steel knives etc)
S-30V


And that's about it.  Any questions concerning other steels, it will be up to others who have actually used the steel in question, or can provide a decent reference concerning it. Unfounded/unsubstantiated  "opinions" are not welcome.


Offline Joel

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 04:13:36 AM »
When shopping for a decent quality hunting knife are their some steels that are best suited to the generic hunting tasks than others ?

In other words in trying to narrow down a particular selection of possible hunting knifes across major MFG's do most large scale Mfg's all utilize similar steel compositions in their hunting knives at various $$ clip levels ?
How does a laymen know if that 100.00 Knife from one MFG contains better steel compositions than lets say that 50.00 Knife from another?

What are some of the steels one should look for in various price ranges across all MFG's that might help laymen such as myself make informed decisions if laying out additional cash is truly buying a better product?.

Does $$ range across well know MFG;s truly correlate  into purchasing a better quality steels -  generally speaking? 
Any general guidelines?

Hope I am asking this correctly.


You're asking it correctly, but the answer is somewhat complicated.  When buying a factory knife there are some steels mentioned that can automatically be written off.  Such terms as "surgical steel" are misleading.  It refers to the steel being non-reactive to human flesh rather than super sharp.  Many scapels are one time, throw aways so the steel doesn't always have to have the need to hold edges for a long time.  There is an old axiom in the knife world that if a manufacturer is using one of the better quality steels, they mention it by name/nomenclature.  Just saying the blade is stainless steel usually means one of the cheaper grades.  However.....even when you see some of the better grade steels mentioned such as 440C, 154CM, ATS-34, S-30V, BG-42, VG-10,D-2, A-2, 1095, the CPM series(both carbon and stainless) etc it's important to keep in mind that some factories heat treat their steels on the soft side since their impression is many of  their customers can't really sharpen a knife(which is true), and they will abuse them and then blame the manufacturer if the blade breaks(also true) and so on. The majority of the people in this country are not "knife nuts" and as long as the knife lasts long enough to do the job they're satisfied...i.e. the casual pocket knife, or a hunting knife that field dresses out one animal, and so on.  When you go for optimum performance with a knife steel, you need to understand the term optimal hardness.  It's the Rockwell C value(Rc) at which the steel is hard enough to take and hold a very good edge , yet not exhibit brittleness.  Toughness is the term used to describe a steel's ability to resist lateral forces over a certain number of degrees; edge holding means the ability for that steel to hold an edge(resist abrasion) for a certain period of time.  If the steel is heated and tempered to that particular number you have that balance, however many factories opt for toughness over edge holding; for the reasons described.  If you find a knife that interests you, the only way to be sure the blades is at it's optimal heat treat, if it's not listed, is to contact the manufacturer.  Then of course you have to trust the answer.  Some have been known to add a couple of numbers to the Rc value.  Reputable companies normally don't.  For instance, as a custom maker who sends his blades out for heat treat, I specify the Rockwell I want the steel to be at, based on the number I look up in reference charts, and the heat treater tests the blade and provides the number I request. I pass that number on to the customer.  Then again, as a knifemaker I aim my business at the "knife nut" and expect them to be more knowledgeable than the average individual.  It's a bit different.  I suggest you do some research on particular knife that interests you, keeping in mind these factors.  Generally, you will spend more money for a knife that uses a higher grade steel; but I think it's up to the manufacturer to either list or make available the specifications on the steel you're getting.  As as general reference many manufacturers harden their blades to an Rc of 53-56, which is fairly soft.  When you see numbers starting at 58/59 and upwards into the low 60's, for the most part, then you're getting your money's worth for that particular steel.
      All this might not matter to you, but it does to me, so that how I'm answering it.  Bottom line......casual use means staying away from the real junk, but being satisfied with mediocre performance.  High performance/high cost...research the model and ask questions before laying your money down.

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 05:00:37 AM »
that was am amazing response . Thank you for taking the time to post. I have two follow up questions.

1. ) Will most MFG have the Rc number available in the accompanying Knife literature at time of purchase?
example , If I am interested in lets say a Buck knife (I am literally going up on the web site and just picking one so we have an example)

Bucks Boone and Crockett Skinner  advertises the following but not an Rc value.
  • Blade Length:   4" (10.2 cm)
  • Blade Material:   420HC
  • Carry System:   Leatherette Display Box
  • Fixed Blade:   Yes
  • Handle Material:   Rosewood
  • Quantity:   Yes
  • Weight:   3.9 oz. (111 g)
2.) what is this chart trying to teach me as a layman about 420HC (I'm trying to learn more)
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=440A%2C425M%2C420HC%2C12C27%2CAUS-6A

"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Joel

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 07:14:01 AM »
Answer to #1 is no, at least for some of the knives I've seen advertised.  I'm no authority on that since I rarely buy a factory knife, and then it's a folder once in a great while.  I do pick up some great old time folders at yard sales sometimes; with no documentation attached.


#2:  http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=ed94b14f5a6b463e8ffee7b89def0cec


I goggled on 420HC steel hardness.  I have a Buck Quicklock with that steel which is my everyday folder and the steel does fall into the "casual use" with that Rc of 54/55. I carry it because I like a small, one handed pocket knife and I rarely stress my pocket knives.  I also have a belt grinder that allows me to re-sharpen a knife in about 30 seconds flat.

Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 09:38:57 PM »
Joel! I'm flattered that you chose to make this a sticky.  Thanks, I hope it goes well. I hope having a good place as a reference for the various steels plus a little discussion will be good for this forum.  I found  your answers helpful even after all the recent reading I've done.  And it helps having someone in the business like you to help us know what is good info.


Speaking of blade info, I really like A G Russell's way of listing a lot of their items with steel type, Rc hardness (when info is available).



I've been surprised to learn that the little Kershaw blades I've raved about is AUS-6 - which by a lot of counts is only a moderate steel. From the performance I've gotten out of the 3 blades in that series, I would have expected a much higher end steel. I think Kershaw must have done a very good job w the heat treat on that series.


My other favorite blade was a Puma general or sergeant or such with the Puma RC hardness test mark - and I believe they claimed around rc 58 for that knife and the way it held up when I treated it right, I believe them.


And a question for you Joel:
  What is your favorite steel for a general duty hunting knife that would be expected to skin moose, bear, caribou, as well as a few moderate camp chores?


thanks again and Merry Christmas.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline Joel

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 03:01:16 AM »
Hope this turns out to be a useful thread.  AUS-6 is 440A with a bit of Vanadium added, which is a good thing; just as AUS-8 is 440B and AUS-10 is 440 C, both with the added vanadium.  I've never heard anything bad about the stuff, and when properly heat treated should make a good blade.


I've never hunted anything bigger than deer, but a friend of mine up in Vancouver Island has hunted caribou and moose and likes my #1 in 3/32"  D-2.  The first moose had to be killed since it charged him and his hunting partner...seemed to think a four-wheeler sounded like a rival:).  He used his knife which has a 3.5 inch blade and his partner used his, a custom, forged knife with a 2 3/4 " blade in 1084 carbon, to end up packing out 800 lbs of dead moose.  The next year, same species(on purpose) same knife..same results.  Out of six knives that were present the D-2 #1 was considered the best of the bunch and ended up being used the most by the other hunters on their animals also.  Since the design dates back to around the late 1700's(French made them as trade knives), I can hardly take credit for the design, but that it's been around that long is an indication it works.   I mostly use the same knife; because the D-2 steel is as good as my others in 154CM/CPM154CM( others swear by the knife in those steels) as heat treated by D'Alton Holder and I just like the way it feels.  Here's some pics Dave sent me..





Offline Dand

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (35)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2974
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 11:11:24 AM »
Nice moose - wonderful eating - the kind I am lucky to find on a rare occasion.  Good post and nice to show that one doesn't need great big blades.  I like about 2 3/4 to 4 inch blades.  After nearly cutting off the top joint of my pinky though, I have come to want a good guard.  Yeah I was fooling a bit that  time but with a slippery hand it was too easy to slide down the blade.  The two brown bears I've messed with seemed to have fairly abrasive skin and were hard on blades when actually cutting the skin.  Bison same thing - the 1 I have experience with had LOTS of dirt worked into its hair and it was tough on blades. My guide insisted on doing most of the work so I didn't use my blades much.  Have a Morseth 2nd blade (laminated) that I put a handle on. It did fine for the bit I used it on bison.  It started with a shaving edge but it needed attention afterwards. Have no idea what steel is in the cutting edge of that blade but its a carbon steel that dulls a little quicker than some stainless blades I've had.
NRA Life

liberal Justice Hugo Black said, and I quote: "There are 'absolutes' in our Bill of Rights, and they were put there on purpose by men who knew what words meant and meant their prohibitions to be 'absolutes.'" End quote. From a recent article by Wayne LaPierre NRA

Offline smokehouserex

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2012, 06:20:38 PM »
 
 
  Hello Gentlemen:
  I have just around to visiting the knife posts. I think most all of us who enjoy firearms/outdoors have a love for good kinves. I have ground a few blades but nothing with any really good metals, a few have been only fair.
  My friend who used to make knives recently passed away and now I only know of only  one other knife-maker in my area who makes good knives. I bought 2 knives from him about 15 years ago and they are great. One is ATS34 and one is D2, his recommendations for my use.
  I enjoyed your info. in your post. Glad to know we have a knowledgable bladesmith here on this web site.
  Thanks Again
  HM

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2012, 03:22:24 PM »
Question from a layman ,
I have narrowed my next purchase down to a 4" blade , I have two in mind , one utilizes 12C27Mod Sandvik , the other 420HC, Both are Approx 120.00.

Is one material better than the other regarding wear , durability , edge retention etc.. ?  If I better understood pro's and con's of both steel construction, it would better help me narrow my selection.

Any information provided would be graciously accepted.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline Joel

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 03:23:00 AM »
While I've used 420HC and think of it as a "OK" steel for a knife that isn't in the high performance category and Buck doesn't really claim that it's equal to 154CM/S-30-V/BG-42 etc. I've never used a knife in 12c27mod, but what research I did on it seems to indicate that most people claim it to be anywhere from about equal to slightly better in edge retention than 420HC. If you look at a steel chart, they both are quite similar except 420HC has a small(very small) amount of Vanadium and Molybdenum.  Both are best at an Rc of 56-58 as far as hardness goes.  Buck has started using 12c27Mod in some of it's knives.  The advantages of 420HC from the manufacturer's perspective is that it's easy on tooling.  12c27Mod was developed for the kitchen trade, i.e. knives, scissors etc.  People like Sandvik steels because the iron ore used is very pure with hardly any sulpher or phosphorus, both of which can weaken steel if present in too large quantities...a little bit makes machining the steel easier.  That's about the best answer I can give you, since as I said when I started this thread, I've no intention of recommending, or not recommending, steels I haven't personally used.  Hopefully, someone who has used both will read this and add their evaluation.

Offline scootrd

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2745
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 10:17:11 AM »
This is a great thread, I am learning so much.
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
"I have strong feelings about gun control. If there is a gun around I want to be controlling it." - Clint Eastwood
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjaman Franklin
"It's better to be hated for who you are , then loved for who your not." - Van Zant

Offline ironglow

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 31324
  • Gender: Male
Re: Suggestion: make a sticky with a discussion of knife steels?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2022, 08:18:45 AM »
  I use very few exotics..mostly 1095, 5160 and 1084 in just about that order.  I often make blades of repurposed steel, blades being a minor part of my smithing efforts.
  I stick pretty much to the carbons..a great edge, easily sharpened, and for the primitive camper, carbon steel is the way to go for striking sparks..

  My grandson on the other hand, uses many types..some of them to produce the contrast he wants for the Damascus billets he forges.

  I just posted a brisket knife he is forging for a client.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)