Cartridge grade in a front stuffer.

[Haywire Haywood]

Anyone ever tried it?  The only guy locally that carries BP is out of 2F and isn't going to make another order till next season.  He still has plenty of Cartridge Grade for $12.50/lb.  I was wondering how it would work for PRB in a 54cal GPR.

thanks,
Ian

[dodd3]

ian if i remember rightly it is a mix of 2f and 3f  i cant see wy it would not work its still black powder  
bernie

[Evil Dog]

Been using it for quite a few years now.  Works right well in either percussion or flint.  I consider it sort of a two-and-a-half G.  No problems at all.

[Haywire Haywood]

Thanks guys, good to know.  I also have a 45-90 that will see it's use.  I'll pick up 2 or 3 cans when I'm there.

Ian

[lostid]

well, it'll go "boom" for ya..but it ain't made fer front stuffers. If it was, they'd call it "front stuffer" grade and not "cartridge'. It' has to do with "pressure" ,,Hhmm,,?

 The powders we have available today are "generally" best used for what they are meant to be used for.  course/ :-) too each his own

[Haywire Haywood]

I'll call Goex tomorrow and lay this to rest.

Ian

[ButlerFord45]

When you get time please post their reply here.

[Haywire Haywood]

The Goex people gave me the number of a fellow by the name of Bill Bagwell over in east Texas that does a lot of testing for them.  If you want his number, I'll PM it to you but I don't want to post it publicly, sounded like it was his home that I called.  I think his wife answered.

He said that Cartridge Grade is a fine performer in muzzleloaders and that I should expect to see about a 5fps drop in velocity because it is more consistant and has no fines in it.  He also said that it hydrates well and should result in softer fouling.

There you go.  Straight from the tester's mouth.  :-)   I'm picking up 3 cans today.

Ian

Edit: Punctuation correction

[sharps4590]

I got the same answer from GOEX and have been using Cartridge for a few months with good results.  I'd have posted that sooner but I just saw this thread.

Vic

[ButlerFord45]

huuummmmm??  Sounds like it might have a lot to do with the granulation and the glazing and not some "pressure" thing?  hhhmmmm???

[sharps4590]

It never was a "pressure" thing Butler, as lostid referred to.   You're most correct.   Swiss generates more pressure than GOEX and it's certainly more than acceptable for any BP firearm.  Just as GOEX told Haywire and myself, Ctg. is a fine ML powder, just more consistent, cleaner and it burns wetter.  

I've not chronographed any Ctg. in my ML's but have no reason to doubt what GOEX says regarding velocity.  I've chronoed hundreds of loads fired from a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 that I used to own and with a Lyman 457125 it will average about 1100fps.  My current 45-90 will cross the screens at a little over 1200 fps with an NEI, 480 gr. hunting bullet.  Standard deviations with a good load will average 4-8 fps.  I'd say that's consistent.

At any rate, GOEX Ctg. has given excellent results in two of the three flintlocks I own.  I've not used it in any of my caplocks as yet.....ain't no prssure thing to it.

Vic

[slayer]

I am going to try a can of this CTG to see how it does. Does it burn any cleaner? Jack.

[lostid]

The Goex people gave me the number of a fellow,, that does a lot of testing for "them".
"He said that Cartridge Grade is a fine performer in muzzleloaders"

 Now honest?,, it is the 21st century. Do you really think this Gent' would be a "tester" for goex if he gave a differnt answer to be quoted in a public forum?
 I never said "cartridge" grade was bad,,or won't work in ML. And, it behooves me to find explaination of "just more consistant","cleaner", and "wetter" as sharps4590 explains the use of cartridge grade in his cartridge guns,,as/or how that use applies to ml?
 Go ahead any or/everybody,,try "cartridge" grade powder in your ml.what da heck? It will work,,but I don't care about "velocity" or "foot pounds" of energy an all that stufff,only part of that means a hill of beans,,
,,,,
 What matters is accuracy. What makes the best group. For each of us. If cartridge grade works best in H. Haywoods .54 GPR and the Goex tester say's it will,,? Who am I to differ, sorry,,I like different powder than "cartidge" grade in my ml's.

[sharps4590]

Hey slayer, it does burn cleaner then regular GOEX but no where near as clean as 777 or the other replica black powders.  It's still dirty.  I started using it in my ML's because I have 9-10 lbs of it and no longer have access to a  range long enough  to  make my Sharps fun to shoot.  The goal in the cartridge arms is to keep the fouling soft and is much desired in ML's.  Ctg. is better at that than regular GOEX altho the fouling isn't as soft as it would be in a cartridge gun.  There isn't enough lube available in a ML.  I suppose one could craft a grease cookie for a muzzleloader and place it between a card over powder wad and the patched ball and it would perform as well in muzzleloaders as it does in cartridge guns, regular GOEX would have softer fouling also, but that seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth.  Then there are those who would start screaming about lube migration into the powder, which I've never had a problem with if the card wad fits tight.  Orinarily, not always, but ordinarily we don't leave our ML's loaded for days and weeks on end and in most hunting situations the temps are cool enough one need not worry about melting lube.  Of course hunting in Africa or elsewhere in the tropics and indeed in southern parts of the US, is a completely different set of circumstances.

I found GOEX Ctg. to be as accurate as any other powders I've used in my muzzleloaders and more accurate than most.  Certainly it is more accurate than I'm able to hold off hand or from a bench.  There's no viable reason not to use it or at least give it a try if for no other reason than to gain knowledge.  Regarding the consistency of GOEX; as most know, a consistent load is often a very accurate load, accuracy being our "holy grail".  I have no reason to doubt CTG. is as consistent in a ML as it is in a BPC firearm.  Black powder in general is much more consistent than smokeless.

Vic

[Haywire Haywood]

Do you really think this Gent' would be a "tester" for goex if he gave a differnt answer to be quoted in a public forum? ~snip~ I like different powder than "cartidge" grade in my ml's.

Who would know better how well a powder works in a specific application than the guy who tests it for a living?  He had nothing to gain in telling me that Ctg works great.  He could have simply told me that 2F was the better choice.  He didn't.  I didn't tell him that I was out, didn't ask him if Goex or a competing brand was better (I could see a skewed answer there), and didn't tell him that I was posting what he said in a public forum.  I also didn't tell him that there'd be some guy he didn't know on that forum insinuating that he was a liar.

Have you tried Ctg grade in your MLs?  If not, then you have nothing to add to the conversation other than uninformed speculation and an arguementative attitude.  If you have tried it, you certainly didn't communicate your personal results.

Many thanks to the rest of you for your helpful input,
Ian

[lostid]

well yes i have,,and yes i did. I said;

well, it'll go "boom" for ya..but it ain't made fer front stuffers.

 never called him a liar,,yet that info has been posted on a public forum.(just a couple days ago)

  My personal experiance with powder grades'? well,, read back for the last few years or so,,
 sorry if you find me arugementative(spl?) it's alway's been a fault of mine. i do do that, i'm a lousey explainer; i kinda figure others read, and have experiance,,sorry
 the short and sweet? the guy that sold you that gpr/h did not say use "cartridge" grade powder. He didn't say that powder was bad,,but there might have been a part in there someplace where 2f or 3f was mentioned for use in that gun. there is/was a reason for that.

goog the madmonk, read; this is the "trad" link, there is a "cartridge" link. i don't get it? why do you want to use cartridge grade in a trade bp when the proper powder grade works better? i don't feel the need to defend powder use. "to each his own". luck too ya

[ButlerFord45]

i don't get it?

This is the first thing you've said in the entire thread I agree with.

why do you want to use cartridge grade in a trade bp when the proper powder grade works better?

Why use it?  Read the man's post.
"...the proper grade works bettef"  Now THAT is what we'd love to hear abour if you'd care to elaborate.

[lostid]

ok butlerford 45, i'll try,,but I aint good with words. k?
 I feel haywire heywood would be better served as a new shooter of bp guns using a faux bp of the proper grade than using cartridge grade goex in his gpr. my experiance of trying to save $ useing the inexpensive stuff just to shoot lent too alot of shooting and missing alot of target.
 i was confused? I wanted accuracy. Then I discovered,,these bp guns ain't just little cannons' that deserve nothing but (some)powder and (a)projectile too shoot. I began too participate with others shooting bp arms.

 cartridge grade is dirty,, patched round ball dosen't (imho) develop the enough pressure for the catridge stuff to burn proper in the bore. that prb is out the muzzle afore the powder is done burning it lend "MUCH" fouling for a gun like the gpr, and all that icky black powder using shooting stuff is a hard thing for a new shooter,,truth.
 So, No. don't use cartidge grade powder in your gpr.you will have fouling and cleaning difficulties. some other guy said it works in some of his guns,but it won't work in another,,and he never tried it in a capper.(sheese!)
 Now here's a question for ya bf45. Have you ever "seen" a manufacurer of a cap-lock or flint-lock gun recomend "cartridge grade" powder? either in history or current?
 I don't want to argue with anyone butler,an there is "so" much info on this site and it's archives,,,,,,just read some.(?) uuhmm, Bill Knight anyone?

[lostid]

I'll not participate in this thread further,i said what i said.

[sharps4590]

I have to say this.....GOEX Cartridge is the same friggin' mechanical compound as GOEX F grade powders.  It's simply more accurately screened and coated.  Same way as the better powders of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.   But then I expect all but one of us knows that.

I believe I'm the only person who posted who said he'd tried it.  I never said it didn't work in some of my rifles, I said it worked very will in the rifles I've tried it in and that I'd not shot it in any of my caplocks.  If I shot caplocks much I would certainly use it as it is a good powder for any black powder firearm.  I also said it's still dirty but not as much so as regular GOEX F grade powders.  That means it burns cleaner lostid.  Sheesh man, read with some understanding.

As far as history is concerned I don't believe any of the fine old powder manufacturers such as Curtiss and Harvey or DuPont ever differentiated between a cartridge grade and any other black powder with the exception of explosives and cannon grade.   Black was the only game in town for centuries and the manufacturers developed it to a high degree of consistency and for particular characteristics.  Some burned wetter and others not so wet.

At any rate, real black powder is still basiclly a 75-15-10 mechanical mixture and any of it will work in any black powder firearm.  That part couldn't be any more simple.

Vic