Author Topic: HINGE REST AND REALITY (Read 1218 times)

missed_shot · « **on:** July 17, 2005, 06:42:38 AM »

I have several handi rifles. All need to be supported at the hinge pin to shoot well. That is fine for target shooting. The question that I have is " What happens when you are in a hunting situation and you have to hold the forearm to shoot?"

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2005, 07:10:38 AM »

The next time you're at the range, try it and see how much difference there is. Use sand bags for support, but hold the forend in your hand and see how well it shoots and if the POI changes. That will give you an idea of what's gonna happen in a hunting scenario. Mine certainly don't shoot as tight a group, but they shoot plenty good for hunting. When varmint hunting, I use a Stoney Point Explorer Bi-pod placed under the hinge which shoots the same as a rest placed in the same spot.

Tim

Zeak · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2005, 07:14:50 AM »

I also was going to ask the same question on a post but you beat me to it. Hope to get a good a good responds to this good question. Zeak

myarmor · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2005, 07:31:44 AM »

Where I live, most deer are taken within 100 yards. But ya got to remember that all you need is a boiler room shot. Something around 6-12"? Your not trying to group your gun, just need to get it in the vitals with as good a shot as possible. That is unless you are really picky where you want to hit -head shot, neck, spine, etc...

some are :oops: guility I am. :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2005, 07:43:34 AM »

It is my contention that if a Handi shoots better when resting on the hinge pin, is an indication of insufficient latch engagement and spring pressure

Here is the reason why (it can easy be calculated by math).

The hinge pin is acts as a pivot and generates uplift against the latch, holding it tight. The up lift is proportionate to the weight in front of the hinge and the weight behind the hinge. The ratio is easy calculated.

When the rifle is rested on the forearm this uplift action is reversed and actually loosens latch contact if the contact is minimal.

My remedy is more latch engagement and a stronger latch spring.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2005, 08:48:26 AM »

Fred:

If you know of someplace that can provide us with some stronger springs...could you please post it...I would be glad to add it to thr FAQ's...so everyone can benifit from it...

Thanks...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2005, 12:38:26 PM »

Mac.
The little heavier springs are not available, but I had one made about 12" long since the winding jig could no handle a .7" length. So I cut them myself to the required length.

The wire used was .004 thicker but still not quite strong enough. So I found another length of coil spring that fits inside the bigger spring. Presto perfect pressure.

The hole or seat for this spring is in the plastic trigger guard and has a tapered botton same as a twist drill. I toke a 1/4 twist drill and sharpened the chuck end to a chisel point and reamed out the bottom of the hole so it is nearly square. You can't over do this because there is not much plastic
on the bottom. This will gain one extra coil or about 15% more spring force.

The spring I had made cost $40 I used up some for trial and error, I have about 8 pieces left that are .8" long and long enough for fitting.
Each one set of two of those are worth $5 plus shipping $1.

I could get some more made of .006" bigger wire and one set of .008"
bigger wire and see which would be best and elliminate the smaller spring inside the bigger one. But that would get pretty costly just to try, and there is a limit of how strong that spring can be.

What I have now works well, but I have only 8 left. Besides they need to be fitted just the right length. If they are too long the coils will sit on top of each other and the latch wont release all the way and if they are cut too short, well you wasted your time and the spring.

I spend a lot of time with these springs to make them work well. The ejector spring could also be stronger. I made a solid extension for this spring to give it more compression. That is another fiddly job that works pretty good. I still get the odd stuck case.

I finally figured out why I get stuck cases in a custom chamber. As you keep using and reloading cases they get work hardened and loose their spring back. Annealing can only be done to the neck and shoulders.
But the cases stick at the pressure ring no way to anneal there.

So when the cases get to about eight uses they are done. New cases never seem to stick. So when I get a stuck case I simply throw them away.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2005, 12:47:49 PM »

Fred, have you checked Lee Spring for availability of a better spring?

http://www.leespring.com/compression_spec.asp?springType=C&forWhat=Search

And would the $teel trigger guard offer any advantages??

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2005, 02:33:52 PM »

Quick.
I checked through the Lee spring sizes, the closest one has a wire size 0.001" smaller than what I have. This would be ok if you had more room for a longer spring you still would need the smaller spring inside the bigger one. The next larger wire size is .010 too big for the seat hole. Don't know if a guy could open the seat hole 10 Thou. But then that size may be too tough.

This is an option to check out. The trouble with the thicker wire is it reduces the compression distance. Without having the exact length spring it hard for me to tell how many coils it has to add up the length for total compression. Like I said there is not much room

Don't know about the steel trigger guard, but the configuration should be the same. I only have the plastic one, which seems ok.

Whatever we need is custom, me thinks.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2005, 03:02:26 PM »

Hmm, maybe the hole could be made a touch bigger and deeper in the metal trigger guard...enough to allow the use of a heavier spring and allow enough room for compression, too?? I just looked at one and there's plenty of room to increase it's diameter and it appears the hole could be .020 to .030 deeper.

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2005, 03:29:34 PM »

Quick.
There is a spring that is 10 thou smaller in OD and is .830 long with a .045 SS wire that could work but seems to me that it is too strong at 19lbs when compressed. What is needed is a wire of .038-.040" .240-.250 OD and about .800" long. It should be piano wire not SS.

I am sure H&R buys them in 1000 lots and get a much better price, and they are not about to change spring sizes. I was told there is nothing wrong with the springs they supply, and the Handi needs no stronger springs. Well I know better.

Minimum order is 10 @ $4.92 each. My 40 bucks don't look too bad and my system looks better all the time. Besides it works well.

Well you check it out and see what you guys come up with, You got 10 Handi's for a min. order of 10.

Fred M · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2005, 04:27:50 PM »

Quick.
LC-045C-8-M Page 125 may work with a deeper hole? You can get them for 28 cents if you order 1000.

Take a spring out and cut a wood match to the length when the latch is back where the action will open. That will give you the compressed length.
At that the coils should be nearly on top of each other.

The spring specs will tell you the compressed length for the free length of the spring. I got the longest length of the spring by grinding of a few thou off the spring then push down the latch lever until the barrel would clear.

The difference of go and no go is very little and that will give you the strongest spring, Don't know if the 45thou wire size will work?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2005, 04:34:56 PM »

Fred, are you goin to provide more if you sell all that you have so far??? That's why I wanted to find a source...in case you weren't....Whatcha think about this one...

http://www.leespring.com/product_spec.asp?partnum=LC%2D042C%2D7%2DM++++&springType=C

LC-042C-7-M

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2005, 05:49:14 PM »

Quick
LC-042C-7-M is .750 long and should work not much to play with, but ok.
You make sure you square the bottom of the seat hole for extra length.
With them being .240 OD, I hope they are not cocking sideways in the hole? With the .042" wire they should not do that.

Your springs will cost you $48.20 plus 15 for handling plus shipping $10 bucks $ 73. 20 distribution $10 83.20 cost plus $16.80 for your troubles comes to 10 bucks each. Man what away to get rich, eh?

No I am not getting any more springs, the ones I have I have never offered them for sale. Some time ago guys wanting some but only one guy ask for one set and send me the money. Another guy thought them to be outrageously expensive. I hate to peddle stuff.

I have 8 dual springs if any body is interested I mail them for 6 bucks each. I don't want GB breathing down my neck about selling stuff, at that price I am only recovering the cost, not counting the hours of research and trips to the post office.

McLernon · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2005, 09:31:48 AM »

The dynamics of the break barrel single shot rifle is very interesting and has defied any of my reasoning to date. I do however accept that locating the front support at the hinge pin is the best position for accuracy and that the vertical support reaction, for support at this location, tends to open the action on all Handi's regardless of barrel length ( ie=>22 inch).

However, my estimates of the latch load resulting from the vertical reaction force indicate that it is small in comparison to the latch load from case thrust. This maybe suggests that latch load effects on accuracy should be dominated by case thrust load.

Of course the initial latch force caused by spring preload is always there so it tends to position the barrel better so that when the case thrust does load the latch it is already snug and resists the case thrust with less deflection. That is, the latch preload acts to take up any tiny gaps between the latch and the barrel by preloading the bearing surfaces just as the overhanging weight of barrel/scope assembly does. This could be preventing impact loading of the latch and avoiding the tendency for the barrel to 'bounce'. This I think supports Fred M's idea of increasing latch spring force and latch engagement.

I think that increasing latch engagement and replacing the subject spring would be of benefit provided the spring preload was substantially.
increased.

McL

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2005, 04:56:49 PM »

Quote from: Fred M

Quick
I have 8 dual springs if any body is interested I mail them for 6 bucks each.

Make that only 1 left, Mac bough 3 and I bought 4 of em....money's in the mail.....thanks Fred!! :wink:

Tim

James B · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2005, 05:38:03 PM »

This has nothing to do with fixing the problem but after I sight my Handi rifles in, I shoot off the bench using only rest position that I can duplicate in the field. This makes for no suprises and with a good load my rifles will group 2- 2 1/2 inches on their worst day and in any shooting position. This puts me right in the vital area out to about 200 yards. I Real seldom shoot at big game at longer ranges that that but I really like to have the chance to shoot my hunting rifles at 200-250 yards before season to check everything out. I know thats hard to do in some places where there are no ranges available that give you that much room. Thats a problem that I don't have as I can shoot 300 yards on my land without going over the next hill. :grin:

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2005, 06:01:55 PM »

You are welcome Quick.
If a guy could twist some ones arm and get a few samples of 4-5 different wire sizes. So a guy could deal with the best size to do the job.

Then you could also test the ratchet for reliable operation. I think my system is about as strong as you want, otherwise you might break the ratchet or the thumb lever.

You know you can get custom springs for 28 cents each if you order 1000.
Other than that I would have to charge 15 bucks each.

I don't wany to get into the design of the latch again, since there is not much that can be done, except to improve the latch seat and a stronger spring. There are a few other modification you will find in my installation procedure.

One thing JPH could tell us if there is a way to harden the latch seat, by building it up with a very fine electrode? Then surface grind it with a concave same radius as the latch bottom. That would give it a perfect fit.
Here I am sceeming again.

The latch itself when fully seated and held in place with a strong compression spring will do a good job improving accuracy. Some of the action tuning things and barrel bedding I did to the 257 Roberts conversion are not evrybodies piece of cake and are beond tinkering.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2005, 06:07:07 PM »

I think for all intents and purposes here, the stronger latch spring and honing of the latch shelf for a bit better engagement will do for most all of us. No one here is trying to make the proverbial silk purse out of a sows ear, but we can make improvements without re-engineering the entire action.....I think!! :wink:

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2005, 06:34:23 PM »

quickdtoo, have you ever seen the "shur-fit" adjustable hinge pins that were made for the T/C Contender? They were an expandable pin that you could tighten the heck out of if you were so inclined. It's a little off topic, but your discussion got me to thinking about them.........haven't seen them in about 20 years, but I'd like to try one in an NEF.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2005, 06:42:34 PM »

No, afraid not, have never been a TC centerfire fan, got several smokepoles, though. :grin: Sounds interesting!

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 18, 2005, 06:58:13 PM »

Fred:

It's obvious...even to the untrained...if they know where to look... :agree:

You,Perklo,and Raynor and Quickdtoo...all have done a pretty good job helping those that don't know what to look for...and giving advice on how to correct it... Thanks...:toast:

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** July 18, 2005, 07:03:36 PM »

Thanks Mac, but I'm just here learnin and sharin like everyone else..... :oops: Thanks to the rest of ya though, specially Fred for his insight and experience with his Handirifle projects.

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #23 on:** July 18, 2005, 07:44:30 PM »

OK Mac don't butter me up we might want to get into butting horns again?

And Quick if I had a sack full of Handi's like you, only god knows how I could live with all the the slaving I would have to do, to make these obstinate smoke poles shoot. Eh what about the poor guy with the Schützen-gewehr, a recipe for the wellness clinic.

Me thinks, I don't even qualify as a Handiholic because I am Handi poor.

But thanks for rubbing me the right way. Now if I had the little guy with the sign like Quick I might find an appropriate mischief. :toast: .

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** July 18, 2005, 07:48:39 PM »

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 19, 2005, 05:26:43 AM »

Fred:

You may be Handi poor...but.....there's no time like the present to become a Handi-Holic :-D ......at least now..you now know what to look for before you buy one.. ehh :wink:

Mac

handi-man · « **Reply #26 on:** July 19, 2005, 03:23:19 PM »

www.smallparts.com !!!!

:grin:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #27 on:** July 19, 2005, 03:30:12 PM »

Welcome aboard, Handi-man!!

I hope that's not all ya have to share!!!! :-D

Tim