Author Topic: Tighten up your slide??  (Read 1970 times)

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Offline 1911crazy

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Tighten up your slide??
« on: August 18, 2005, 05:08:59 AM »
Has anyone ever used the vise method to tighten up your loose slide to the frame fit??

Offline jakes10mm

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Why?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 09:45:57 AM »
Is your slide that loose?  Are you tightening it to improve "accuracy"?

I've had both sloppy and tight fit slides on my 1911's.  My current competition pistol is a NRM Colt 1991 Govt.  It has a nicely fit slide, but it is by no means rock solid like I've seen on some S&W SW1911s, Springfield Armorys, Kimbers, Les Baers, Wilsons, etc.  But...accuracy-wise, I'd stack it up against the other mainstream production guns (S&W, SA, Kimber).  

Tightly fit slides feel cool, but they are not necessarily an advantage.  A well-fitted barrel is a better investment than tightening a slide.

Back to your original question:  I have read quite a few technical manuals and discussions about slide tightening.  Crimping the slide is a bit dangerous as you can misalign the slide out of parallel with the frame.  I've also rad that this method tends to be temporary in nature, as the steel will tend to spring back.  Peening the frame rails seems to be a more preferred method.  There is also the option of welding the frame rails and recutting them for a better slide fit.

Offline 1911crazy

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 12:24:16 PM »
I heard that Kuhnhausen's mentioned it in his 45acp book as a trick to tight up a loose slide.  I was just wondering if anyone has done it. I would like to get more into accurizing the 45acp and i'm just looking at all the options.  I know i can TIG weld the rails too.

Offline Iowegan

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2005, 02:55:37 PM »
Spend your time and money on fitting a match grade barrel and bushing. Not a "drop-in" but a fit-to-the-gun model. Match barrels are oversized at the hood and lugs and a match bushing must be dressed to fit the barrel and slide. This will tighten up groups more than anything else.

Tightening the slide does nothing more than increase malfunctions.  The vise method is terrible. Squeezing the slide may tighten the horizontal slack but it makes the wrong angle for the vertical guide. This will make the slide wear in no time and the only fix is a new slide.
GLB

Offline Castaway

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 06:08:10 AM »
BigBill, I did it to my Norinco with some success.  I did a little compression, released,  fitted to frame, redid the compression again.  Repeated the process I forget how many times.   You have to compress the slide beyond what you want to final fit to be as it will spring back after you release the vise.  Combine that with a rail peening and a match bushing and you're on the way to an accurized 1911, and you did it all yourself!  Good luck.

Offline Mikey

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2005, 12:21:32 PM »
BigBill - years ago gunsmiths for the Army Marksmanship Unit used to ballpeen hammer the slides or put them in vices or any other thing you can think of to tighten up a slide, believing that would improve accuracy.  It doesn't.   In addition, it reduces the tolerances that make the 1911 so reliable.  

As the Iowegan said - spend your time and money having a match barrel fitted to the slide - it will work better, be more accurate and more reliable.
Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2005, 08:08:52 AM »
Mikey;  I just fitted the $8 national match barrel bushing to the new $59 G.I. barrel in my norinco slide and it feels great.  The bushing has no play when its locked up.  And it cycles by hand with no problems. I think its all done now and i just have to test fire it again to be sure. It has the 18# recoil spring with full length guide rod too.  I hope to shoot her soon its a night and day difference in the barrel to slide fit.  I may or may not tighten up the frame rails on the slide but i have a direction to go anyway if its needed. I shot it last time with just the 18# spring and full length guide rod and new barrel and it spit out the 45's faster/smoother than anything i have ever shot in the 45 caliber so far.

I have a new complete 1911 G.I. Slide Kit also that i'm just starting to work on too.  I fitted a national match bushing to the new slide the same fit as my norinco.  Its snug to the point you just have to turn it in with the bushing wrench for the final loc up.  Now the new G.I. barrel is tighter in this bushing so more fitting to get it right will be needed.  Then the upper part of my first 1911a1 build will be done.  The slide work is fun so far its not that hard to do. The next thing to learn is fitting the frame rails to the slide.  I have a few honing stones that should do that fit nicely.  I know not too tight and not too loose it has to be just right to be reliable too.

Offline Mikey

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2005, 01:46:13 AM »
BigBill - good luck.  Let us know how she shoots.  One more point though - when you properly fit a barrel to the slide you will get a more consistent locku- than you would by tightening the rails.  The rails will wear on you much sooner if they are improperly fit, but a properly fit barrel will last a long, long time.  

I forget which gunsmith it was but one of them wrote that he would rather properly fit the original barrel to the slide for enhanced accuracy than to switch to another barrel or try another strategy.  He felt that once the barrel was properly fit to the slide both accuracy and function were improved.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2005, 08:54:39 AM »
Mikey; Nothing on my norinco will see any wear at all now that its all moly'ed up too.  I moly'ed up the empty slide and ran it by hand working the moly in then I assembled the barrel to the slide and molyed it up too. The biggest before and after moly treatment is with the full length guide rod and spring its slicker now and smooth too.  The frame rails on all my new 45's will be moly'ed up in the sameway before they get shot.  You can't beat the premium blend of the moly anti-sieze for use in guns.  The 45 can get messy if you use too much but i just wipe off the excess and its good to go I leave the barrel and spring guide coated with a light thin coat of moly. Maybe thats the trick having all the right parts fitted properly so they will function correctly then having the right lube(moly) to prevent all wear, all friction and galling.  The use of moly in the used guns the results won't be seen because there is wear already but it will function faster and smoother.  The results from using moly in the new guns will be really seen as the wear won't be seen at all. On my first sks inside the reciever where the bolt carrier rides there is still bluing on the rails because of the moly it hasn't worn off yet.  You can see the results in new guns but you can feel the results in both new and used guns with using moly.  The biggest thing that no other lube offers is that it prevents wear and friction and thats the bottomline.

I never seen a 1911a1 in 45acp cycle so fast as my norinco does now with the 18lb spring w/full length guide rod and moly.  I think the 18# spring cut down the wasted cycle hang time and the moly speeded everything up because of no friction.  I'm sure if i can see the difference right away, the others who are more familiar with their 1911a1's will see it  too.

Offline Dee

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2005, 02:38:59 AM »
I realize this topic has not been visited in a while but this is what I have done for years and no one has complained. I will first squeeze down the slide a little at a time until I get a noticeable improvement on slide to frame fit. If it is comeing slow due to wear from an older pistol or a mixed parts pistol I will peen the rails slightly and evenly until I began to get friction. I will force the slide on with this slight friction and check where its occurring and then gently peen other areas of the frame rails to match. When this friction is to the point that it is difficult to cycle the slide and frame by hand I will vise the frame and coat the slide rails with very fine grinding compound. If necessary I will use a rubber mallet to drive the slide back and forth until I can finish the lapping by hand. In this way the slide to frame fit will be precise. Next I will install the barrel fitting the barrel lugs to the slide (match if wanted) using an over-length barrel link. The bushing should be tight enough that a bushing wrench is needed to turn it even without the barrel. The real key repeatable accuracy is having the slide, barrel and frame to go back into battery precisely the same after each shot. As far as reliability, if the throating on the chamber, the ramping and extractor tension and angle  are combined with a trued and polished bolt face my pistols will cycle ANY bullet configuration. If they don't I check the magazine.  Your next object of attention will be the power level of your loads combined with recoil spring poundage. Bullet configuration should not matter.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline unclenick

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Tighten up your slide??
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 04:30:57 PM »
Slide squeezing vice jaws used to be available from Brownells, but I haven't looked to see if they’re still there?  If you have a set of precision rail plates to peen against, the rails generally spread more than enough to let you file and lap them to fit the ways in the slide side-to-side.

If you do have to squeeze the rails to get contact, you generally do this in a large vice which has an integral anvil.  After you tighten the vice on the squeeze jaws, you strike the anvil with a deadblow hammer to stress-relieve the slide and minimize it’s tendency to spring back.  A bloody nuisance and I've only ever had to do it once.  

It should be noted that the old G.I. slides on the 1911 were “soft” slides.  It was found they tended to peen into a jamb at the slide stop, so later they began heat treating slides and spot heat treating the slide stop notch harder than the rest of the slide.  This all adds up to a modern slide being more springy and harder to squeeze than the early ones were.  I suspect this fitting technique was pioneered on the old guns where it was easier to do.

I'll disagree with some of the comment here that implies barrel fitting is a substitute for slide fitting.  Barrel fitting is much more significant, but, in general, if you want the best accuracy you do both.  A general rule of thumb the late Col. George Nonte cited is that accuracy depends about 50/50 on mechanical accuracy and practical accuracy.  Mechanical accuracy is what makes a gun accurate in a mechine rest. Practical accuracy is what makes it user friendly; sights, trigger job, ergonomic grips, etc.).  There isn’t much point in making a mechanically accurate gun if you are going to leave a gravelly seven pound trigger and tiny military A1 sights on it.

Of the mechanical 50% of accuracy, bushing fit accounts for about 15%, slide fitting maybe 5-10%, while getting the barrel to lockup right is the remaining 25-30%.  There are exceptions: individual guns where the importance of one of these elements may be exaggerated or lost because of something peculiar about that particular gun, but these are fair general guestimates.

One other reason for proper slide fit is to minimize how high locking lugs have to go up to lock the barrel firmly into battery.  I've seen guns where the slide is loose enough vertically that a fit barrel, after cutting the link lugs, required such a long link that the assembled gun couldn't cycle.  The back of the link lugs had to be filed forward before the barrel would fully unlock and lie down in the frame cradle (bed) in counter-battery.  Needless to say, the barrel feed ramp then overhangs the frame feed ramp and has to be filed forward more than usual.  This weakens support for the case.  Lowering the rails to keep the slide down minimizes these problems.

Another reason to fit the slide is that some guns are loose enough that they don't always cycle in a straight line.  A not uncommon problem is the bottom of the recoil spring housing in the slide rubbing the frame dust cover, but not consistently.  You see marks on the slide if this is happening.  The irregularity can affects target accuracy and, with a marginal load, can affect functional reliability.  A gun that locks up the same way every time tends to feed more reliably than those which do not because the fitted slide moves along the same path every time.  

You always get some grumbling that a tightly fit gun can't reliably cycle when full of mud and sand, as the 1911's original looser tolerances allowed.  The counter argument is that unless you are planning to fight World War I over again, being prepared for trench warfare has less value than achieving improved reliability under more contemporary circumstances.

Nick