Handi vs cheap bolt rifle

[McLernon]

I have been reloading for more than ten years now so  I figure I should be able to find a good recipe for my Handi. Well I tried MANY reload recipes in my .223 Handi but WWB 45's out shoots them all both from a velocity and accuracy standpoint. Some other factory rounds might be better than both my reloads and WWB but I doubt it. The other popular brands mentioned in this forum are not available where I live so the only choice I'm left with is the WWB.  I have on other occasions shot WWB better (4 three shot groups 0.83 inches AVERAGE) but the point I was trying to make was that I find the Handi more difficult to handle compared to shooting 'free' a bolt action with a set trigger.  A side-by-side comparison like I made yesterday makes the differences quite clear.

In any case, a rifle that shoots 1-1/2 inch groups is not inaccurate it's just not the best that's all. And the shooter has something to do with it too as I mentioned in my post

 My CZ on the other hand shoots consistently BELOW 0.5MOA forming tiny clover leafs with little effort. I expect it to for the money I paid for it (2-1/2 times the cost of a Handi).

Generally I don't think a break-barrel rifle with a two-piece stock like a TC or a NEF/HR has the same accuracy potential although some might shoot as well. When you consider the low price and other advantages that the Handi's offer they are great!


McL

[stolivar]

Yep that is right. I sold everyone of my handi's and now the proud owners of the Savage Stevens line. I bought everyone of them for $289.00. I think they are a lot better gun then the NEF's. more shots more accurate out of the box. less picky about ammo and extraction. For the difference in price. (very little I would say) The bolt action line of Stevens in more gun for the price.  Sorry guys, but they lost me, and I have been a handi man for over 10 years.


steve

[Mitch in MI]

And I like my 500 shotgun and my OLD Mossy .22 rifle.

Yep, Mossberg had a few nice ones. I like my 500, got it new almost 30 years ago 4 1/2lb trigger out of the box, more like 3 1/2 after a few hundred shots. I've seen a lot of rifles with worse triggers than that old shotgun. After getting spoiled by the 500's tang safety, I'd never be able to switch to an 870.
I like my Winchester 75, but I'd not feel disadvantaged if my bolt .22 was a Mossy 144 instead of the Winny. I just wish we could still get either one from CMP for $50.

[McLernon]

They say that it is ten times harder to win a customer back, once lost, as it is to win him in the first place. If this is so NEF has its work cut out for it to win back stolivar.

The Handi is priced at entry level so undoubtedly there are many first time users that have purchased a Handi. It's likely that a good many of these will find all the tuning that allot of us like to do so much a daunting task. So why doesn't NEF/H&R fix some of these things and avoid turning off those new to the sport and those with less patience. Such things as stiffer hammer and latch springs, proper latch engagement, fore-stock issues, case sticking and other things that ought to be easy for NEF to fix at minimal cost?

McL

[Fred M]

McLernon
You are absolutely right. The H&R folks are pretty dense. I doubt that many if any that buy the handi rifles like to frig around with them in a big way. There is no question about the Stevens out of the box is a better buy for a non tinkerer. But they are not a single shot with its pleasing parameters.

To me the Handi's are a challenge, to see what can be done. My engineering background gives me the insight how to approach a problem and solve it. I only have two Handis and they don't get a lot of use. But the way I got then tuned and one I really dressed up, they are dandy Handi's and both shoot well under one inch.

[Norseman112]

Well that would come under Quality Control Program. Well managed ones help a company and mis managed ones will do the opposite. Every company no matter who they are will have some call backs, reworks ect. Some have many more than others. I truly belive H&R makes some nice rifles, however I do have a concern about the QC of H&R. I think H&R has very good customer service, as they took care of my needs and others that I know of.

Final thought.
My handi rifles shot pretty good when I got them, but the guys here on gray beards helped me make them shoot better (can never thank every one enough).  I have to decide what will be the next handi rifle for me ( I know I am sick) .  Oh and Jess, thanks and good luck on your hunts this fall to.

John  

Norse

[McLernon]

Hello Fred

I too am an engineer and this probably explains why I enjoy the 'tuning' process. I haven't gotten into the internals of the Handi yet but putting stronger springs in the action is of interest to me. One question Fred, are the pins that tough to remove and can it be done without marring up the action/pins?

Thanks

McL

[Fred M]

McLernon
No the pins are not hard to remove. Clamp the action to a solid surface with two pieces of hard underneath straddling the pins using two wood clamps. No damage to the pins when done like below.

I use flat bottom pin punches slightly smaller than the pin. I made several punch templets from see trough plexy glass but hard wood will do.

Drill exact size holes in the templates to fit the punch center them over the pin and clamp the template in pace. You are now ready to drive out the pins from right to left. Looking at the action from the top barrel forward. Pins have serrations on the left side so the wont fall out.

Install the pins with the serations on the left. Drive the pins in from left to right. I don't drive the pins all the way home when I put them back in, they are easier to come back out that way.

See Perklos trigger tuning  for tools.

[stolivar]

One of the reason they lost me was the price of their barrel prices with the extra add on price put them out of the good buy range. For just a little more you can buy the whole gun. Second one is they are too slow to put out new barrels. third one they are always out of stock about anywhere.  Fourth one is that you can buy a Stevens for just a little more money then for their ultra series and get a whole lot better and more accurate gun. Plus you don't have to fix it to get it to shoot straight and eject the darn shells. You also don't have to worry about where you use your resting point on the stock and you have 5 shots. Sorry guys, I have been with them for over 20 years and they are no longer that good of a buy anymore......  A little too late with the QC and other offerings. Better things out there for about the same money.


steve the one NEF lost for good.......... :cry:

[tneff]

Like many on here , I have several different rifles to choose from. A few more expensive and the Handi Rifle , It took a while for me to get my first Handi as I was one of the ones that thought a gun that cheap had to be crap. I chose the Handi in a 223 with a bull barrell , the gun is more than I ever expected and honestly can't find a single thing about it that I don't like.

[jmckinley]

One of the reason they lost me was the price of their barrel prices with the extra add on price put them out of the good buy range. For just a little more you can buy the whole gun. Second one is they are too slow to put out new barrels. third one they are always out of stock about anywhere.  Fourth one is that you can buy a Stevens for just a little more money then for their ultra series and get a whole lot better and more accurate gun. Plus you don't have to fix it to get it to shoot straight and eject the darn shells. You also don't have to worry about where you use your resting point on the stock and you have 5 shots. Sorry guys, I have been with them for over 20 years and they are no longer that good of a buy anymore......  A little too late with the QC and other offerings. Better things out there for about the same money.


steve the one NEF lost for good.......... :cry:

I picked up the 223 for a good price and love the way it feels, yet I wandered off course and bought a Mark X Mauser in 6mm rem today for my Antelope hunt. I'll still will use the small cal. handi but for Elk,bear oryx i'll go to a big bore 300WSM in a bolt. I do feel the handi's are a good buy and will own others for sure. The Mark X  has a 26"hvy barrel and fits me like a glove. The handi 25-06 will be my next toy. I think you've made a mistake getting off the band wagon.   Jess

[Mac11700]

One of the reason they lost me was the price of their barrel prices with the extra add on price put them out of the good buy range. For just a little more you can buy the whole gun. Second one is they are too slow to put out new barrels. third one they are always out of stock about anywhere. * Fourth one is that you can buy a Stevens for just a little more money then for their ultra series and get a whole lot better and more accurate gun... *Plus you don't have to fix it to get it to shoot straight and eject the darn shells.[/i].. *You also don't have to worry about where you use your resting point on the stock and you have 5 shots. Sorry guys, I have been with them for over 20 years and they are no longer that good of a buy anymore......  A little too late with the QC and other offerings. Better things out there for about the same money.


steve the one NEF lost for good.......... :cry:

Oh...I see...do..you think your Savage will be more accurate than this..?




Perhaps you should go and read this thread...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=62494&start=0...I really haven't done anything different than on any other rifle I own..except add a small o-ring under the forearm...my cleaning and lapping of the bore is done to all of my rifles...

So... you need to have more than 1 shot to be comfortable killing something...and when you go hunting... you have to worry about carrying a bench out into the field for hunting to shoot off the hinge pin area? These are things I really don't worry about...and I have yet to miss 1 animal with my rifles due to the number of shots I have on hand...or lack of being able to bench rest shoot off the hinge pin area...namely because it only takes 1 well aimed shot...and I practice shooting off hand...

Ok...you been with them for 20 years +...then you know just how much better a rifle they have become...and they have been producing better rifles so...comparing one made by H&R 20 odd years ago to those of NEF of today...really isn't a good comparison..just as comparing a bolt gun..to a single shot break action....and 1 last thing...how many calibers,and configurations does your  Savage come in?

Funny...and you say they are a better gun...I don't agree with you...I say the are a cheap.. farely accurate bolt gun that's only offered in limited ways and calibers choices...Are they a good buy for a bolt gun... For some that are in the market for a Savage bolt gun...I'm quite sure they are...it isn't that they are better.... because they really aren't..it's most likely because they are different...and you were just ready for a change...

You say they lost you...I say...Good Luck with your new rifle...for after the newness wears off...you'll be back

Mac

[McLernon]

I don't think you can compare a Handi with a cheap or not so cheap bolt action. The aesthetics of the Handi/Ultra can only be enjoyed by someone looking for something different Or challenging. The feel of a Handi is so different ( and pleasing) from a bolt action with the center of gravity closer to the shooter than most bolt guns( except perhaps the expensive ultra-lites with noodle barrels).

Bolt actions are known to be the most accurate rifle action and some say that break barrel single shot rifle ought not to shoot well at all. But the fact of the matter is that they do shoot well or can be made to. The Handi is a different shooting experience in the same way that a lever gun is a different experience so direct comparisons to my way of thinking don't make a whole lot of sense. Two things that are different cannot be the same.

I like lever actions, bolt actions, pumps, break-barrel single shots and you name it. And I'll enjoy them all for what each of them has to offer.

Those that turn up their noses at anything but a tack driver bolt gun are missing allot of fun.

So there.

McL

[jmckinley]

I don't think you can compare a Handi with a cheap or not so cheap bolt action. The aesthetics of the Handi/Ultra can only be enjoyed by someone looking for something different Or challenging. The feel of a Handi is so different ( and pleasing) from a bolt action with the center of gravity closer to the shooter than most bolt guns( except perhaps the expensive ultra-lites with noodle barrels).

Bolt actions are known to be the most accurate rifle action and some say that break barrel single shot rifle ought not to shoot well at all. But the fact of the matter is that they do shoot well or can be made to. The Handi is a different shooting experience in the same way that a lever gun is a different experience so direct comparisons to my way of thinking don't make a whole lot of sense. Two things that are different cannot be the same. I like lever actions, bolt actions, pumps, break-barrel single shots and you name it. And I'll enjoy them all for what each of them has to offer.

Those that turn up there nose at anything but a tack driver bolt gun are missing allot of fun.

So there.

McL

Aftershooting a 25-06 handi yesterday I now see your point. My Handi fluted is easy to shoot. The 25-05 with the narrow forearm was another matter. It was very hard to keep steady on the bench. I to like all rifle types. I have a 223 Handi, 270Win Rem pump, and Interarms Mark X in 6mm and just put a Weatherby Vanguard 300WSM on layaway. When I posted this topic I had been looking at the 710, ATR and Savage/Stevens and thought the handi was a better quality rifle. Bolts maybe more accurate but the ones that show little effort at quality leave something to be desired. I like them all and will contiue my collecting and shooting. Planning a trip to Africa in the next couple of years and will add a 375HH or 416 Remington before I finish my collection.   Jess

[handirifle]

Mac
I agree with most of your logic, however I see the Savage a comparison to the high end bolts like the NEF compares to the TC Encore.  It's a fit and finish issue vs real accuracy.  My Savage rifles have always been as accurate as my 2 sons' Rem 700's (ADL and BDL), same caliber.

It's not fair to compare a Handi to a bolt, no matter which one it is.

As for Stolivar saying the barrel price increase makes them not a good bargain, I haven't even seen a USED bolt gun for under $125.  So a whole new caliber for under $125 really is still a good buy.  I'd like to see one brand of gun the DIDN'T go up in price in the last year.

Savage's own model 40 varminter, a single shot bolt in 22 Hornet is priced well over $400 and it doesn't even have the same interchangable (sort of) barrel system of the other Savages.

Even with some occasional frustrations the Handi's are a good gun and good buy.

Now if I can just get my 26" 30-06 barrel!!!!!

[stolivar]

handirifle,
 I was talking about the difference in price of the barrels and the complete Handi rifle. $125 from $196 is not that much difference in price. Some of the barrels cost you even more. Also the stevens rifles are nothing but the savage without the accutrigger and a different stock. they are not a cheap made gun like the rem 710.  Also I have owned the old NEF and the NEF and find that they are not made any better.  I don't have to tinker and fiddle with the savage or stevens to get it to shoot good, they just do straight out of the box. Most NEF's don't. I have owned 223, 270, 30-06, 45-70, 280, 7-08, 25-06, and a 308 in the handi's and ultra series. For the difference in price of only $100 the Savage Stevens is a whole lot better gun.  I don't  need the extra shots but it is nice to have.


steve

[handirifle]

As far as Savages go, you're preachin to the choir.  I've had one or another for 30+ years and think they are the best gun for the dollar, period.

I see what you mean about the price, I cannot touch a std Handi here for less than $235 so it is a bigger gap for me.  Wal MAart doesn't sell guns in Komifornia and the dealers are eating it up.

I've never had to tinker with my Savage rifle, only some loads.

If the Stevens was made in a LH model I'd get a 223.  If it was accurate I'd sell my Ultra varmint but the stevens would have to match it first.

I like the barrel interchangability of the Savage and the faster twist in 223 (1 in 9).

[Norseman112]

Handi I agree with you. Nef VS TC is a  better comparison.
Yep I have a Stevens(savage) to and it is a shooter. On good days (depending on wind ect and myself) I get some nice clover leafs. Matters not if I am shooting the handi or my stevens, the fun I get and so dose a buddy I shoot with, is people ask "what kind of rifle is that?" and "How much was it?" and they go wow!.  If a rifle is not as pretty or as expensive as another one.... so what. It shoots, its safe and holds up and you are having fun enjoying this shooting sport is all that matters to me.


Norse