Remington for dangerous game

[Paulinus]

I am anticipating a brown bear hunt next year.  I will need to purchase a suitable rifle (my old deer rifle) is a wee bit to light for brown bears.  In reading various hunting forums, I notice a strong preference expressed for mauser style actions over the push feeds found in Remington.  I have found Remington bolt actionss to be accurate and very easy to use.  Does anyone have experience using a Remington for dangerous game?  If so would you do so again?  I am interested in the 700 XCR when they become available this fall.

[beemanbeme]

I am not really qualified to comment as I have only hunted where there was a possible encounter with a grizzly.  I never saw one but the thought did add quite a bit of spice to the hunts.

Saeed over in Accuratereloading, has routinely hunted some of the largest, meanest stuff on earth using push feed rifles.  And also with the controlled feed actions.  He sez its a personal thing as either work well if the driver knows what he's doing.  And either can screw up if he doesn't.  

You will hear all sorts of hypothetical reasons as to why a cf is better than a push feed but few, if any, will be valid.

Whatever your choice, the best guard against screw-up-itis is, of course, practice, practice, practice.  One thing you might consider, if the battering of the boomer is too much for any sort of sustained practice, set up a lighter rifle -say a 30-06- exactly like the boomer, scope, trigger-pull, weight and all, and practice your field shooting with that.  Do practice with the boomer as much as possible.

[Yukon Jack]

Personally, I would not use a push feed bolt rifle for dangerous game hunting.  If I had to, the very last one I would select would be a Remington.  If you just flat do not like CRF actions, then look at a Weatherby Mark V or Sako.

The reasons behind not using a Remington in particular (not just a push feed, but a Remington):
1.  Serious quality issues.

2.  Terrible customer service.

3.  More Accidental Discharges reported than with any other rifle made.  Even after the supposed "safety fix" campaign, owners are reporting AD's from taking the safety off.

4.  More bolt failures, yeah as in the bolt handle breaking off, than any other rifle.

5.  More aftermarket parts to correct the things that are wrong with the Remington 700 than any other rifle.  Think about this.  You don't see an after market safety to convert the Winchester M70 to Remington M700 style.  You don't a flimsy aftermarket extractor similar to the Remington to add to the Sako.  Aftermarket triggers to correct the Remington Walker design to make the rifle safe.  Nobody sells a Remington Walker type trigger to correct any other brand's shortcomings.

6.  The Remington J-Lock.  A blatent attempt to pacify the anti-gun community at the sacrafice of gunowners (Remington's customers!).

[JPSaxMan]

We're not turning this into a Remington bites thread. I believe there's one like that already.

I have never hunted any other type of big game besides deer, SO I cannot offer a valid point on that. Bigger gun the better for grizzy's, right, or one would so assume? If you can use an autoloader where you hunt I'd go with a Remington 7400 .30-06 Carbine or the .308 model. This way you can take multiple shots at an incoming target and knock him flat.

This is my opinion and as I stated it is only a mediocre one...just one of common sense!  

[Yukon Jack]

I didn't mean to turn the thread into a "Remington Bites" thread.  My apologies.  However, a Dangerous Game Rifle means so much more than a rifle chambered for a dangerous game cartridge.  You can use autoloaders in Alaska for big bears, but not one single professional guide does and very few residents do.  A dangerous game rifle must feed correctly, extract perfectly and eject the cases each and every single time.  There may be no second chance.  No, these rifles aren't your regular deer rifles.

[JPSaxMan]

I've also heard of guys who hunt bears with their normal bear rifles (whatever they might be :? ) and then holstered, say, a .44? Or for grizzy's, I wouldn't mind having a .500 S&W at my hip either. Just gotta practice with it, cause ya only got six shots and if not one hits the bear charging ya, you might as well just....you know what I mean.

Apologies accepted Jack  :wink:  

[Yukon Jack]

To be honest, I don't know too many residents that go bear hunting with a rifle and carry a handgun.  The handgun is just dead weight, if you have a rifle in your hands.  There are a few guys, but many are newcomers.

No matter what label Remington hangs on their rifles, they are just not designed for dangerous game use.  Accuracy - absolutely, but not for complete reliability in the conditions bears are hunted here.  Not the feeding design, not the way the bolt is made, not the extractor, not plunger, not the safety, and not the trigger.  Fine for game that isn't gonna kill you, but not for dangerous game.

[JPSaxMan]

Yea I suppose that is some food for thought.  

[beemanbeme]

Yukon Jack, how many Remingtons have you owned??

[Yukon Jack]

Four.  Still have one.  Tried using a Remington 700 Custom shop rifle chambered in 8mm Rem Mag here for a while.  Just wasn't a rifle I felt I could trust given what I was using it for.  Loved the cartridge, though.  Also had two other 700's, both BDL's.  Have neither of those anymore, because of the things I described above.

I think the design of the 700 is wonderful for building an all out accurate rifle.  Would be great for sheep hunting, goat hunting, deer hunting, pronghorn, etc...  They are a better platform to build a truly flyweight rifle on, also.  It's not that I don't think the 700 isn't good a design, just not a good design for dangerous game.  That is based on my experience alone.  One action, one cartridge, one barrel (size or length), one trigger weight, cannot be perfect for all conditions and uses.  I believe Remington excels in some areas, Winchester in others, and Mausers in other uses.  The other side of the coin is that I would not choose a Mauser action to base a benchrest competition rifle on.  Nor would I pick a Ruger to build a flyweight rifle on.  Each excel at different things.

If I were to build a rifle for hunting pronghorn or sheep and goats in the lower 48, I'd probably start with a 700 action.  If I build a rifle for the big bears here in Alaska, I'll use something else.

[Ramrod]

You will hear all sorts of hypothetical reasons as to why a cf is better than a push feed but few, if any, will be valid.

I'll not give any reasons, just a simple fact. Professional Hunters in Africa will not carry a push feed when guiding clients on dangerous game hunts.
For me, the Remington 700 action is usually more accurate, but the Winchester CRF and the Mauser are what the pros bet their life on. Thats good enough for me.

JPSaxMan, some advice I was given along time ago about six-guns and bears was, "only use five rounds on the bear. Save the last one for yourself, you're gonna need it."

[JPSaxMan]

Ramrod, I'll have to adopt that philosophy if I ever start bear hunting  :-D

[Lawdog]

I am anticipating a brown bear hunt next year.  I will need to purchase a suitable rifle (my old deer rifle) is a wee bit to light for brown bears.  In reading various hunting forums, I notice a strong preference expressed for mauser style actions over the push feeds found in Remington.  I have found Remington bolt actionss to be accurate and very easy to use.  Does anyone have experience using a Remington for dangerous game?  If so would you do so again?  I am interested in the 700 XCR when they become available this fall.

Why not ask Scott Newman, the Alaskan guide that was mauled by a wounded Brown Bear in May of 2004.  He was using his favorite custom Sako(another push feed rifle and a better one than any Remington in my opinion) in .416 Remington Magnum and it jammed when he short stroked the rifle when the bear charged.  He survived the attack but has since dumped the Sako in favor of a Win. M70 in .458 Win. Mag.  Short stroking can/has/will jam up a push feed rifle where it won’t a CRF such as a Win. or Mauser type action.  Why not ask the opinion of our resident Professional Hunter, JJ Hack, and see what he thinks of using a Remington for dangerous game?  Lawdog
 

[Paulinus]

The message is coming through loud and clear, and it conforms to my own hunch about push feeds.  I think Remington has a nice package in the XCR, but not for dangerous game.  I notice that Sako has come out with a "big game deluxe" rifle which has a control round feed rather than its standard push feed, but with a MSRP 24,180.00 I think I'll pass.

[texagun]

"Why not ask Scott Newman, the Alaskan guide that was mauled by a wounded Brown Bear in May of 2004.  He was using his favorite custom Sako(another push feed rifle and a better one than any Remington in my opinion) in .416 Remington Magnum and it jammed when he short stroked the rifle when the bear charged."

Is it possible to short stroke a Control Round Feed rifle and jam it up?  I only ask because I own both kinds, and occasionally the Winchester Model 70's that I own with CRF don't always feed perfectly either.  Just wondering if you could jam up a CRF rifle too in the excitement of a bear charge?

[Yukon Jack]

"Why not ask Scott Newman, the Alaskan guide that was mauled by a wounded Brown Bear in May of 2004.  He was using his favorite custom Sako(another push feed rifle and a better one than any Remington in my opinion) in .416 Remington Magnum and it jammed when he short stroked the rifle when the bear charged."

Is it possible to short stroke a Control Round Feed rifle and jam it up?  I only ask because I own both kinds, and occasionally the Winchester Model 70's that I own with CRF don't always feed perfectly either.  Just wondering if you could jam up a CRF rifle too in the excitement of a bear charge?

If you short stroke a CRF actioned rifle, what happens is the empty case is pushed back into the chamber.  While the already spent case won't fire again, the matter is easily fixed by operating the action again.  A CRF can't feed two cartridges at the same time, one has to clear before the bolt can pick up the next one from the magazine.  So, no jams.

However, if a CRF rifle isn't right (quality control problem), you can have a failure to feed or the bolt bind, same as a pushfeed rifle that has quality control problems.  The beauty of a CRF rifle is the cartridge is controlled as soon as the bolt moves forward until the time it is ejected.  Not so with a pushfeed rifle.  Some people have had problems with a Winchester in the past and claimed it was a CRF problem, that's not quite right, it is a quality problem, not a design problem.  Same can happen with a 98 Mauser if changed drastically from the chambering it was originally designed for without changing the bottom metal, magazine and making the feeding geometry right for the new cartridge.

Remington's M30 and M25 were CRF rifles, but were dropped from production because of the expense required to manufacture.  The 721 and 722 were pushfeed rifles that later became the 700.  Remington left the CRF design to save on manufacturing costs, just as Winchester did in 1964.