Author Topic: 308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers  (Read 762 times)

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Offline pagris

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« on: August 26, 2005, 07:50:24 AM »
Hello Members - I have been shooting a .308 Ultra Hunter that has been routinely producing fired brass with protruding primers.  This rifle has only had reloads through it since new and the loads used have not been anywhere near book maximums - in fact, I recently started thinking that my loads were too low, thus resulting in primers that weren't being reseated during the firing process.  So, last week, I tried a broader range of increased loads to see if that indeed was the issue, but, alas, roughly 50% of all of the spent shells showed noticeable primer protrusion.  Some specifics for this range test:

Win Brass
Hornady 130 gr. SP bullet
H4985 powder, Charge weights of 40.0 to 43.0 grains (Hornady book range is 40.0 to 48.2 grains)
CCI primers  
Brass is full-length resized, primer pockets were cleaned and uniformed prior to loading.

The percentage of cases with protruding primers varied from 40 to 60% per charge weight, with no noticeable pattern as the charge weight increased.  The primers were seated flush with the case prior to discharge and protrusion varies from just noticeable to my aging eyes to as much as 0.014" after discharge.  

The only other tidbit of info that I can think to add is that this particular lot of brass (or primers?) is the most difficult to seat that I have ever experienced - it sometimes takes me two hands on the press to get them to seat fully.

At this point I am thinking two things - perhaps I am not getting enough neck tension and the bullet is exiting the case before the pressure builds enough to reseat the primer.  Or, could (and I am no expert here) this rifle has excessive headspace that is allowing the case to move horizontally too much and thus not reseat the primer.  I probably should mention that every primer, whether fully seated or not after firing, has some machine marks across them that match some machine marks on the receiver that surround the firing pin.

My inclination right now is to purchase some factory ammo to see if I get the same condition, but I thought I would inquire here to see if I can get any possible explanations for this behavior.  Thanks in advance.
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Offline Mitch in MI

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2005, 10:29:22 AM »
I'm not the most experienced reloader here, but it seems like you can't get 14 thou of protrusion unless you start with 14 thou of headspace, which would be way excessive. Are you sure this barrel was intended for this particular frame?

Can you shove any of your reloads in far enough that the case head is noticeably recessed below the breechface of the barrel? If so, can you do the same with factory ammo?

Offline Mac11700

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2005, 11:17:40 AM »
Without seeing any of this firsthand...I would say that your causing your headspace issue by oversizing the brass...the primers won't back out unless of excessive headspace...over charging and super high pressures won't normally cause this....now the rifle could have excessive headspace...and as Mitch ask you...can you insert a factory cartridge flush or below flush?...also...you can measure your gap between the barrel and the standing breech with a set of good feeler gauges...and to get good reloads you need to know how much heapspace to reload for...this gap should be around .002" or smaller...my barrels lock up on a  .0015" gauge...all of this has been put up in the FAQ's at the top of the page...as far as your dies...try starting off with some new brass...trim the case only to square the case mouth up...and smoke the case neck and shoulder...I size my cases to make up  this gap...which is .0015"..if yours is .014"...you have 2 options...sending it back in...or shimming on the hinge pin to correct it...to an appropiate amount.

Mac
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Offline Lone Star

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2005, 11:31:37 AM »
You are clearly oversizing your brass, perhaps unintentionally.  A slightly deep chamber will cause this too.   It is made worse because your loads are probably pretty light, not near full pressure.   If you are following the sizing instructions included with most die sets, you are doing it wrong.   :(

First you need a fired case without the prutruding primer, one which fully fits the chamber.  Smoke the shoulder with a candle, then back out your sizing die 1 turn.  Run the fired case into the die and check to see if the die is making contact with the shoulder - it should not be.  Screw the die in 1/16" at a time, sizing the case and checking for marks on the shoulder smoke each time.  Once you have marks, stop and chamber the case.  If it chambers okay, lock down the die and you're good to go.  If it is still a little tight, turn the die in 1/16" turn more, that should do it.  Now you can't have primers protruding so far, there is no excess headspace for them to protrude into.   :D

Offline tallyho

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2005, 06:55:39 PM »
Pagris,
I am only a moderately experienced reloader, so I won't address the original question because others have more to contribute than I, however this did attract my attention:

Quote
it sometimes takes me two hands on the press to get them to seat fully.


Are you using military brass? I have had this problem with military brass because of the crimped in primers. I don't know if it has anything to do with your original problem, but just pointing out my experience.

Cheers
Kerry
DECEASED 6/6/2013

Offline JPH45

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2005, 08:15:24 PM »
You say that you are only loading 40-43 grains, yet the max load shown is 48.2. I seriously doubt that a load that is 5 grains shy of the maximum is making enough pressure to streach the case enough to reseat the primer. Your first inclination is most likely the road to follow.

If you dont have one, get a chronograph. This will tell you more about your loads, and the approximate pressure levels than any other peice of equipment a reloader can own. While many things in reloading are not absolute, there is a very linear, progressive relationship between pressure and velocity. Typically, the higher the velocity, the higher the pressure. A chronograph gives us a window into the pressure progression of our loads. A good many starting level loads for a cartridge like the 308 are only making in the neighborhood of 40,000 psi. That is only about 70% of the operating pressure of the cartridge. Are the case necks clean and bright or are they sooty? If they are sooty, it is a sure sign of too little pressure. Necks that are bright (an obvioulsy bright shiny as compared to the rest of the case) are indicitive of high pressures, the pressure acting against the case as it tries to move against the chamber wall creates this brightness.

If you have a sooty neck and protruding primers, you are at low pressure. Primers running at high pressure generally don't protrude, they get flatter and flatter till they are blown out. If the primers don't have sharp edges, but rather are round edged still, you are at low pressure. Again, generally primers don't protude at high pressure, they will show a raised ridge around the firing pin crater (indention, strike) This is almost always in conjuction with bright marks on the case head, usually from the extractor. The Handi won't show this kind of mark, it will be hard to open and there will probably a brass colored ring on the breech face, or even a brass colored drag mark. At these pressure levels the primer pockests will begin to loosen in short order. I don't mean a primer is easier to seat, I mean a primer won't stay in the pocket. At these pressure levels, you will also see a dark ring around the primer pocket, gas leakage.

There is a pretty strong disscussion around this.....  that over time, cases that headspace on the shoulder, that are fired constantly at low pressure will develope excessive headspace as a result of the firing pin blow driving the case into the chamber, but with a lack of sufficient pressure to restreach it.  I don't buy, especially when we are talking about a Handi. But incorrect sizing die dimensions could create this.... probably a red herring in this. My 30-30 exhibited very proud primers, even in factory loads. It was not untill I exceeded 2550 fps (app) that I even began to get primers flattening at the edges. Since I was operating well outside any available, reliable data, I simply quit experimenting.

The short side of this converstion is that without a chronograph you are guessing at what the load is doing. Guessing is ok, a great many of us do it, but study the manuals very carefully. Speer and Lyman both have good sections and drawing and photos of what normal and overloaded cases look like.

With primers, if it protrudes and shows no loss of round edges, pressure is low. The greater the loss of rounded edge, the higher the pressure. As the rounded edge begins to disappear, look more and more closely at the condition fo the brass, the opening qualities of the gun and the breech face for brass coloration, as well as for discoloration around the primer and for primer peircing as well.
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Offline pagris

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308 Ultra Giving Protruding Primers
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 04:21:00 AM »
Members:  Thanks for your replies - you have brought out a couple of interesting points.  Although I have heard of partial full-length resizing, I have never practiced it, as I normally load for lever action rifles (which, I understand, that you full-length resize for, period) and never thought of applying the practice to the Handi.  My unfired, sized cases are currently sitting about .007 inches in from the breechface, as best as I can measure them.

I would have thought that the 43.0 grain load, being within 11% of the maximum listed load, would have created enough pressure, but perhaps not.  The necks are a little sooty, and there is no sign of excessive pressure.

I believe I will 1.) try some factory loads to see the results and 2.) try to minimize my headspace by adjusting the sizing die.  

To answer a few of the other points mentioned, this rifle was a new purchase, so the receiver/barrel compatibility should not be an issue.  The brass in non-military.  And a chronograph is on my wish list......

Thanks again for your suggestions.
Thanks, Dad, for taking me into the great outdoors.