convince me...

[wolfsong]

Hey Jeager106 (and anyone else out there) convince me that black powder gunning is worth the time and trouble. What are the dangers? what are the drawbacks? doesn't it take alot of time in preparation? I know the cost of weapons can be more affordable to start out with than "modern" weapons, but are all the necessary paraphenilia costly? How accurate are entry level pieces? O.K., I'm  all ears...Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

[ribbonstone]

It's what's missing from you list that may be key here...no mention of "tradition" or "historic accuracy".  Which would let you use one of the adjsutable sighted models...which would keep you from having to fiddle with the fixed sights of the historically correct versions.  IF I'm wrong on this, then correct me.

Ruger Old Army cetainly isn't "inexpensive", and wile a great gun, it may be too much $ for one to spend just to see if you like the sport.  Are some adjsutable sighted Rem. copies that might do the trick for you.

IF fixed sights are OK, then there are currently some good eals on Pietta made guns at Vabellas...noticed the steel framed 1860 Army is being offered for about $165, and the Steel Framed Remingtons for $160.  In today's market, these are good prices.

What gear?

Powder is a little expensive, not per pound, but because you are buring 30-40gr. of it at a shot.  Are few cenerfire guns that burn that much powder per round fired...so the cost per pound may be less, but you use more of it per shot.

PErcussion caps and primers...usually caps are a bit higher priced.

Round ball is at least as cheap as the most inexpensive bullets, often cheaper...so no problem there.

No difference in the $ of cleaning rods, but you CAN get by with just water (hot prefered) to clean and some preservative oil to keep rust away.

Grease for the chamber mouths can be a simple (and cheap) as Crisco. Felt wads are nice, but aren't a "must have" and do drive up the cost...I seldom use them for "play time".


Taken all together, with the cheaper projectiles, cheap cleaing liquid, and no cases to bother with, belive the BP revolver can be shot at least as cheaply as a centerfire. With the cost of some good steel guns under $200, there is a rather large savings up front....and the depreciation on used (but well cared for) guns isn't as great as the hit you take trading a high priced centerfire gun in (and no FFL fees either..can offer it for sale yourself and ship it to most areas).

-------
Truthfully, I do shoot a LOT of 9mm.  I put the $ up front and bought 500 rounds of ammo..then went back and bought another 6,000 rounds.  Dirt cheap mil. surp. ammo ...but (1) not reloadable (2) corrosive (so I have to clean as if I was shooting black powder) (3) not able to adjust the power as I am with a percussion revovler or reloaded center fire ammo.

For dirt cheap shooting, stay with a good .22LR and stock up on the "come on" specials at Wally World...may not be the best shooting stuff in the world, but it certainly is cheap enough.

[Shorty]

Wolfstone,
Sit back, relax, take your time, there's no rush.  This is it.  It's just plain old fun.  Loading time; forever.  Cleanup time; forever.  Who cares?  It's fun!  Relax.   :wink:  

[ribbonstone]

Been wondering about time.

On the centerfires that I reload for, would have to count in the time that gets spread out and is usually not counted at all...but sorting cases, cleaning brass, the whole reloading process, even boxing those reloads...all part of the time equation for shooting.

With percussion guns, once you clean it and put it away, there isn't any hidden time....you just load it as you go.

But for sure, black powder guns are not for anything but relaxation...if you are in a hurry, need to stick with cartridge guns and buy your ammo ready-made.

[jeager106]

wolfy:
it's only dangerous if you stand in FRONT of the gun. :eek:    
Bawwwwwwwwwwwwww-hawwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
I really, really crack me up! :wink:
Go to www.auctionarms.com sign in and shop.
First look at what Cabelas has new then you will know if you got a deal on the auction.
Still it's hard to beat Cabelas prices.
I have two Pietta adj. sight versions of the 1858 Rem. copy.
NOT historically correct, but I am not historically correct, merely hysterically incorrect.
 :twisted:
One of the adj. sight jobs is stainless. I left it unlceaned, thoroughly fouled for three weeks in a humid garage with no sign of rust. Do not do this with a blue steel gun.
Reloading is s l o w , if you want to toss lead down range stick with modern stuff.
If you want the black powder experience try cap'n ball.
They are NOT hunting weapons 'cept for small game and pests.
They can be quite accurate.
I bought two cases of black so I'm set for a long while and cost was way down at about 8 bucks/lb. for Elephant and 10/lb for Schuetzen and 16/lb for Swiss which is el primo powder and NOT necessary for the smoke wagon.
Circle fly has .44 wads, for super dirt cheap by the 500 or thousand, can't remember, and you do not need them.
Crisco works as well as 50 buck/lb lube.
If I run into 'nuther steal I'll let ya know.
Last deals were yard sales, two .36's one Colt clone t'other a Navy Arms /58 Remmie copy at 40 bucks each.
I didn't even want a .36 as I have balls, 'er ah, .44 balls but I stole the guns so bought some balls.
Caps at Walmart run under 5 buck/100 so a nickle a pop.
Balls at 5/6 bucks/100 so 5/6 cents a pop.
Add 30 grains per 7000 grain/lb = 233.333333333333333333 shots per /lb.
233.3333333333 into 12 bucks/lb = 5.3 cents/pop so that = about 16/20 cents/pop.
or 10 bucks per fifty shots.
Buy powder at 9 bucks/case& 1000 caps at 28/bucks, 19.00 for a mold and scrap lead your bullet cost drops to 1 cent. I have everything I need to cast bullets but TIME.
I guess I shoot for about 12 cents a shot but I don't add pennies and I don't shoot near as much as I want to.
Too busy making $$$$ buy toys.
The thing is that you can buy a revolver of your liking, minimum of goods to make it go bang, Pyrodex "P" works fine, and if you really don't like it sell it.
You may not find ball at Wally but order from Cabelas to get started. Crisco from grocery, powder/caps from Wally and your set.
A volumetric powder measure is a must but I suppose Wally has those.
20/30 grains is good.

[wolfsong]

Let me touch on a few things here. First, Jeager106, great wisdom on your first point. I will make sure I'm on the right end of the gun. Secondly, Iam totally into history and the romance of our American western heritage. I have a couple of civil war era wall hangers and they have helped to spark my current interest in BP weapons. I do love to shoot any and every type of weapon that I can. I grew up shooting an OLD Remington bolt-action single shot .22. Dad always reminded me that bullets don't grow on trees, so make every shot count. But now I can afford the toys of my choice and rapid firing is soooo much fun. What leads to my questions about BPs is the opinions of several gun shop owners, basically agreeing that BPs are a lot of hassle. Maybe they want to sell bigger ticket items or bigger mark-up items, I don't know. Or maybe it's because they are older and they see time spent on a hobby differently... I'm all for relaxation, heritage, history, new challenges,  and just plain fun. I am definetly going to edumacate myself and purchase a BP revolver soon. I guess I'm just afraid that I'll find BP addicting and have to grovel in front of the boss (wife) to justify a whole new direction of collecting. (she still doesn't understand the concept of needing back-up guns). Anyway, please keep your input coming and I will check all the current posts and old ones. One last thing-is there a book that you guys might recommend above others that will give me a good insight to begin with? Thanks, peace and God bless, Wolfsong.   P.S. Jeager106, thanks for the detailed breakdown, I should have known  that you would be thorough, as usual. But you ain't THAT funny... :lol:

[yooper]

Hey wolfsong...Black powder shooting is just plain relaxing.Whether you are into rifles shotguns or handguns,It is just relaxation. You load your firearm for what ever part of the shooting game you are into.Light medium or or hunting loads,take your pick,it's the grandfather of the reloaders hobby,only you're doing the reloading as you're shooting.COST? I remember when you could shoot all afternoon with a .58 cal and as long as you made your own projectiles you could almost shoot as cheaply as a rimfire. Some how they managed to push the price of caps up and it isn't quite as cheap anymore,but not any less fun.They say "different strokes for different folks"...I prefer to make my strokes with Hickory..

[jeager106]

wolfy: S  I  R 'at funny. :>)
I really, really, crack ME up!
Yes to the books. Sam Fadala is the black powder guru in print at least.
Most of the larger book stores carry one of his in stock or order via e-commerce.
If you are really into hysterically korrect then you may want to be carefull of Pietta. They make reproductions of revolvers that never existed.
Like a .44 'Navy' Colt clone in .44 with steel or brass frame.
The navy was .36 only.
The 1858 Remmie is a good Pietta copy and Pietta quality is improved quite a bit from 20 years ago.
The are pretty close to Uberti and cheaper.
If p.c. is what you are then forget adj. sights of course.
I like to blast downrange too and have both modern and b.p.
P.c is not all that important, but I do have p.c. revolvers and three custom handmade p.c. flinters that I love.
To my mind a handbuilt flinter absolutely reeks of beauty and grace that cannot be found in even the nicest modern arms.
But that's to my eye and I only have to please me.
I never knew how wonderful it could be to learn to shoot the flinter and how fast the lock time is. My .58 Jeager # 106 (familiar?) is a fantastic shooter and very pretty with 33" colrain swamped barrel, walnut stock with a touch of metal and art work.
My Bucks county .40 flinter is gracious with +++P figured curly maple and slow rust browned metal, the .45 is by an unknow maker with ++P maple and brown metal.
The all three go BANG right now!
Read and learn about cap'n ball then make the modest investment.
Like I said you can always sell on actionarms or to ME.
Oh, jest thort a sumpin.
yee gott tauk funy lik dis 2.
pm me I gots sum info!

[Chris]

wolfsong:

At our age (44 plus) most of us start looking for things that are little more  slow and civilized...BP shooting is one of them.  If you're like most, once you pick-up and start shooting BP you'll get hooked deep.  There's just something soothing about he entire process...preparation, loading, shooting and yes...cleaning.  It may be a tad more expensive per shot...but your're not going to be sending as much lead down-range and then there's all of that SMOKE.  Real BP a bit tough to find in our area but it's still available.

My two cents....buy the best BP handgun (revolver or pistol) you can afford to start, as it will make the experience much more enjoyable.  Some of the cheapos out there are pretty rough around the edges and not much fun....but they're easy to recognize.  Get all of you supplies you need to load, fire and clean...then head to the range to have some fun and turn some heads.

Be Safe!  ...Chris  

[ribbonstone]

With an interrest in history, then a historicly accurate replica would praobly be more enjoyable.  The 1851NAvy would proably be the most common, and the most likely to have been used for years after the Civil War...by vets. of both sides.

Colt 1860 or Remington 1858(ish) would be pretty common (more common for the North than the South).  Colt has records of them being ordered (in decreasing numbers) right up until the 1870's.  Not every one felt the need to have their revolver converted to cartridge, some were perfectly happy to keep on using loose powder and ball, so the basic 1860's cap-n-ball gun fits in well with nearly any era of the "old west".

Shooting:
1. gun
2. ball of the right diameter
3. powder
4. percussion caps
5. grease (Crisco)
6. powder measure (can be a simple as a home-made scoop).
7. Something to carry this stuff around but still keep it divided. Most people use a small cheap tackle box.

Cleaning:
1. pistol cleaning rod
2. Slotted jag tip
3. Water (preferable hot)
4. Rags
5. Toothbrush (child size works better).
6. Preservative oil.
(to keep it "real life 1860's, can omit #5 and wash out your  cleaning pathes for reuse.)

Maitainence:
1. Well fitted screw driver(s). Preferable one for each size screw.
2. Nipple wrench.
3. Good quality gun grease.

NIce to have:
1. Extrra set of nipples.
2. Extra set of springs.

----------
Making some of the things you need is part of the black powder tradtion.  The best wedge tapper I've used is a 2 1/2" length of copper water pipe set on a 5" wooden handle (turned from an old boom stick).

[jeager106]

Just for grins and fun I loaded up that new Pietta brass frame .44 'confederate navy' that is alive only in the imagination of Pietta.
Don't matter to me as I'm a plinker and I bought the thing new for 93.50 new in the box.
Instead of heeding all the advixe of keeping the charges light(25 grains and under) I loaed 'er up with 30 grains of Schuetzen 3fg.
She packs a bit more recoil than I would have thougt. More than a .38 spl. but less than the modern magnums by a long shot.
Still it's a mite mor potent than I thought.
I set ip a milpark man sillouette at 25 yards and got off 12 shots offhand just to see if a soldier of the civila was era would have been in deep doo-doo at that distance.
Yup. Deep doo-doo. All 12 shots went into solid torso hits fired rapid as though my life depended upon it.
I held about belt buckle level and as expected all 12 went high into the torso between diaphram and neck.
Accuarcy from the bench will come later.
Interesting story here. I good buddy had aquired 2 boxes of .454 balls and he does not shoot revolvers so he sent them to me.
You should have seen me with this not so p.c. clone trying to load the FIFTY caliber roundballs on top of the powder charge.
WHAT?
Trust me they do not fit!
Apparently somewhere in history these .454 got mixed with .50 r.b.
Once I figured it out the .454s loaded just fine shaving the classic ring of lead.
Lube was Crisco. You do not need to fill the area over the ball full. You can of course, but just enough to lube the ball is sufficient and the 1st shot melts and blows the excess shortening all over.
Deep fried balls.
OUCH!
You can kill and cook small game at the same time!
I used Circle Fly card wads twixt powder and ball and this over 30 grains left the ball just low enough to clear the barrel.
Didn't have time for more shooting. Got to get rested as we are doing another Sat, this week.
Work don'cha'know?
Groaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.  

[wolfsong]

O.K. Jeager106,  u funny, I admit, but looks ain't everthin! Seriously, I just picked up an 8mm Mauser sporterized that was on government lay-away (waiting period- 10 freakin days!) and while I was there I asked the very respectable and knowledgable shop owner (yet another one, this makes six) about black powder and he was full of doom and gloom about buying powder, storing powder, govmt regulations, haz-mat fees, seperate shipping of ammo and powder when buying both at the same time from the same source...then he turned in the opposite direction and said that if I do give it a try to take up cowboy action shooting and/or mountain man comps and re-inactments. Said it would run about 5 to 6 thousand fun tickets to get authentically outfitted but that these types of comps/gatherings are waaaay too much fun. Then he brought up the lack of local competitions and the traveling that's necessary here in Commifornia. I'm soooo confused!?!  Tell ya what- I'm going up to them thar hills we call the Sierras tomorrow A.M. and sling some sharp sticks at a couple of respectable bucks we spotted Wednesday but couldn't get a shot on. Tough life, huh, Jeager; hunt one day, pick up a new rifle the next and call in sick the next to go deer killin agin (I suffer from anal glaucoma-I can't see my ass going to work!).And the weekend isn't even here yet! While I'm up in them thar hills I'll ponder on this BP thing. If I know me, I'll probably get into it just to say I'm into it. What's a couple of more guns in the safe? It's not the cost or investment, I just want to be reasonably sure that I will enjoy it. I absolutely HATE duck hunting as it isn't  the least bit enjoyable to me to sit in a blind in six inches of freezing water at dawn waiting for a duck or two to fly over, swim out to the dead bird (I don't have a bird dog and the wife refuses to help) and then break a tooth when biting down on some shot when eating the damn thing. But I do own some nice shotguns. And they look good in the safe. O.K. they are pretty handy for knockin down some dove or a couple of quail, and my cow dog enjoys the boiled jack rabbits. I'll probably ask the wife and she'll say we can't afford it and I'll go out and buy a piece or two just cause she said no...now wait a minute, guys, I'm talking about Black powder guns here! Anyway, I'll check the posts when I get back from the hills to see how strong the next round of opinions are. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

[jeager106]

Wolfy:
I unnerstand that everyone won't buy a case of black like I do and it isn't necessary.
powderinc (plug in a search) will sell 5 pounds at a time for a small savings over one pound at the gun shops that do sell it.
The profit in Pyrodex if a mite better than the mark up in black and regs. aren't as tough.
You can get by just fine with Pyrodex "P" grade in the cap'n ball.
T-7 3fg works great, fouls less, is not hygroscopic and far less prone to corrosion but CUT CHARGES by 20% by volume as T-7 is strong.
Wish I could take time off the go hunting. :cry:

[willysjeep134]

If you want to go try cap and ball, but don't want to drop a whole lot of cash, here's what I would do.

First you need a gun. A colt brass framed copy in .44 from Cabelas will cost you around $120 out the door. It isn't the best, but if you really like the sport you can get a better gun later.

Next you need some caps, balls, and powder. Caps cost me around $3 per tin, powder around $15 per pound, and a box of 100 round balls isn't much either (I don't have the exact price).

Now you need some lube to put over the balls. A box of plain old lard, or even crisco is probably better than most of the wonderlube type products. All you need is an old popsicle stick or teaspoon to spread it over the chambers. This shouldn't cost more than $2 as well.

The last item you really should have is a nipple wrench. A nipple wrench is the only good way to get revolver nipples out. If you load a chamber without powder you can take the nipple off and dribble some powder in behind the ball.

A nylon .45 bore brush is also hand, as well as a bottle of dish soap. Cleanup is easy with hot water. Just take the grips off, pop the cylinder out, and hose out the cylinder and barrel. You will also want to take apart the mechanism to get the moisture and crud out of there. After the gun is clean and dry, a little more unsalted lard or crisco will help preserve the bore and mechanism.

[Dan Chamberlain]

I have switched 90% of my black powder shooting to using 777.  Cleanup time is cut in half.  No smell, no black crud.  Lots of smoke.  Good accuracy.  My .36 Navy prints one hole groups at 15 yards and has taken several squirrels, rabbits and one fox.  A couple passes with a wet patch, another wet patch and the bore and chambers are clean.  The frame stays really clean.  I get no crud in the hammer recesses or in the trigger mechanism.  I don't remove the nipples but once every couple of range sessions.  No rust, no fuss.  Squirt a little WD-40 to absorb any moisture you may have missed and you are ready to store.  5 minutes.

Dan C

[wolfsong]

O.K. next question - what caliber goes boom in a LARGE way? I want lots of smoke and noise and recoil! Accuracy will come with practice, right now I want to experiance power. Also, how does one's shooting stance and grip differ from shooting a semi-auto or DAO wheel gun? I know there's lots of variables when shooting different types of weapons, I'm just curious if one form will interfere with another.  For example, if I play alot of golf during softball season, I've found that swinging at a softball and swinging at a golfball overlap and it screws up both games. Always trying to crush the ball. This results in slices and pop-ups. (BTW, softball ALWAYS comes first, golf is just something I have to do with the in-laws) Anyway, I'm off to Barnes & Noble to get some books on BP shooting. Thanks for the input and info so far. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

[wolfsong]

By the way, Jeager106, I was fortunate enough to bird dog a respectable 3x3 blacktail for my hunting pard, he stuck him at 40yards while waiting at the truck for me to finish working a ridge. Jumped that buck right into his lap almost. I came home with an empty gas tank and an empty tag, but at least we'll have jerky for rifle season in a few weeks. My pard will have to bird dog for himself this time, I won't be giving up my honey holes when the the fire sticks come out.  I've got opening weekend off, (sept. 16 - 19) and 4 weeks off in October. Two deer tags to fill and one bear tag. Mountain quail season opened up two weeks ago and today is the first day of dove season. Just thought I'd rub it in a little bit. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

[jeager106]

By the way, Jeager106, I was fortunate enough to bird dog a respectable 3x3 blacktail for my hunting pard, he stuck him at 40yards while waiting at the truck for me to finish working a ridge. Jumped that buck right into his lap almost. I came home with an empty gas tank and an empty tag, but at least we'll have jerky for rifle season in a few weeks. My pard will have to bird dog for himself this time, I won't be giving up my honey holes when the the fire sticks come out.  I've got opening weekend off, (sept. 16 - 19) and 4 weeks off in October. Two deer tags to fill and one bear tag. Mountain quail season opened up two weeks ago and today is the first day of dove season. Just thought I'd rub it in a little bit. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.

oh, gawwwwwwd, yer makin' me SICK! :x  :cry: