Ejector pin issue and question

[rodgervich]

Hey swagers I wonder if you could help me out with your experience on this. I am new to swaging so bear with me on the questions. I recently was loaned a swage press and set of dies to fool around with so I made up some bullets for a project I am working on, these are light weight .204 cal bullets (28.5gr).
When ejecting from the point form die the end of the ejector pin gets a little bit stuck in the tip, just enough that the bullet has to be firmly pinched and wiggled off, not a huge issue but it is irritating. You can see in the picture that it formes a little counterbore and sharp edge to the tip hole.
I experimented moving the depth of the tip up/down to see if that would help. When it moves up the pin pushes through and gets stuck inside in the lead (what a PIA that is!), a little further down and I get a straight nipple on the end and the pin still sticks in the tip.
I notice that the cut end of the jackets when trimmed have a generous angle taper on the inside, I suspent that this angle may be causing the pin to stick. When the point is formed the tip still has the sharp edge and allows the pin to just barely squeeze inside to get stuck. Also note that I do not have swage lube and did not lube these with anything after the jacket draw operation so maybe the dry friction is making the pin push too hard?
Is the taper on the jacket the cause or lack of lube? If the jacket how do I make a square end on the trim?Aside from the sticky pin thing the bullets came out pretty good I think, especially for a first timer.
 Thanks for any insight.

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[Smokin7mm]

I think your issue may be a little of both.  First and formost use lube.  If you do not you will start pealing off bits of jacket material which will progressivly get worse with each pass.  The issue with the chamfer on the jacket is a different issue.  Most jackets are deburred after trimming to length.  The ones in your picture look a little extreem which may be leading to the ejection pin being grabbed but if you use the proper lube the friction should be reduced and the bullet should eject easier.  I usually set my point form die just to the point where it is starting to enter the ejection pin hole.  This eliminates the pin sticking in the lead and closes the hole to create a smaller point.  Jacket length is critical in this area to get the proper point.  Give the lube a try first.  Hope this helps.
Bret

[talon]

smoken7mm is right on!! But, as a new fellow to swaging it really needs to be emphasized to use only Lube made for swaging. Axel grease, case lube, and/or the highly touted resizing wax won't do at all. In short, 80% ( or more) of all swaging PIAs is due to this simple factor. You have been very lucky so far not to get a stuck bullet in the PF die. That's the mother of all PIAs....

[rodgervich]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll get some lube ordered today.
How do you deburr your jackets, is there an easy (quick) way? I would sure hate to have to use a case trimmer or something.
Do you apply lube for each step, I mean each time it goes into a die it gets a fresh lube or just one or two steps (which ones)? I was using Imperial wax but will wait until the lube gets here to do more.

[talon]

If you are righted handed, apply an extremely small dab of jacket lube between your thumb and 'pointing' finger of your left hand, pick up a jacket with those two fingers, and lightly roll it back and forth between them. Then place it in the die. You only have to get a new dab occasionally, but roll the jacket every time you put it in a die. The amount of lube is extremely little per jacket: just a light sheen. 1 oz of lube should be enough for 2000 1.2" 30 cal jackets, for instance, lubing each twice as they go thru the normal 3 die process. Be careful not to get any lube inside the jacket or on a core.
  The pictures you provided show pinch-trimmed jackets. These are so sharp that they'll cut your fingers! The existence of the lip flare show that they weren't properly trimmed. About the only thing you could do, other than saw trimming them to a slightly less length, is to do a single swipe of the jacket lip over a piece of emery cloth that's been laid out on a flat surface( a piece of window glass, for instance). Be consistent in your swipe, as you're removing weight, and you don't want inconsistent weight loss.
  Your friend who loaned you your swaging supplies and tools did you and himself an injustice by not helping you thru a few hours of instruction. Swaging may look simple, but most of us who've been at it for years still are in the learning phase. I can not understand why your buddy didn't make sure you knew about lubricating those jackets? Or at least make sure you had the proper lube. Dies are expensive, and, frankly I'd never loan mine out to anyone who hadn't been swaging for several years.

[rodgervich]

Talon, thank you for the instruction. I may have been exaggerating when I said I used no lube, seems I would have stuck at least one if that were the case. The tin of Imperial was there so I probably did use it close to what you describe, my memory lately has been terrible so I don't want to backpedal my words too hard.
I have 4 of Dave Corbins swaging books including "Handbook #7", all of these I have read cover to cover many times over the 5 years they have been on my shelf. I did get verbal instruction several times but my friend lives on the other coast, I personally know several other people who swage but they are all at least two states away. I met one fellow here in town who swages but he changed jobs and I have not seen him in over a year, didn't know him well enough to even get his name. I have seen the process, read about it, have been told about it but never actually witnessed it n person. Until you actually pull the handle a few times you don't even know what questions to ask. I understand the theory and the mechanics and the equipment but this is the first time I have had a chance to do it for real.
As far as the jackets being not properly trimmed, that is the best this trim set will do. It does look a bit homemade and I have no idea how many thousands of jackets it has cut or how many times been polished or modified. What should the trim punch look like? This one has a pilot that is snug in the jacket ID then a gently blended shallow angle that connects to a bigger taper that goes up to the die body OD. Shiny polished and the jacket mouth looks exactly inverse of the trimmer, they won't come out any different than what you see unless I have the punch modified. So far I have not spent any money on this so if I need to get the trim punch corrected I'm plenty willing to do so. The press appears to be in excellent shape but the dies are fairly old and were owned and used by a fellow who made bullets for sale in them, then were used by another guy and finally ended up in my hands. They are good shape but not great and I don't know how they may have been modified over the years. Do swage dies wear out?
Lube is ordered and on the way.

[Sledge*]

Rodgervich, Just caught you posts on the trimmed jackets. If I can help in any way email me. You have my email address.   Are you trimming the .600 jackets shorter or another length jacket?  In case you don't recognize my user name I picked you up at the airport in Rapid City.

[rodgervich]

I want to thank everyone for their respnses. I spent some time last week working with the press and components and my new lube. I found that it was a combination of things, lube being a major factor. Long story short; I am using adapters for the Dave Corbin dies in the Walnut Hill press, the dies are not made to make bullets as short as I am making and so I had to use a spacer disk under the bottom punches. I carried this spacer over to the point forming die/ejector punch and finally figured out that the spacer was keeping the tip of the ejector punch up inside the die about .040" so the bullet was being swaged onto the tip of the pin. I found this out by swaging a plain lead bullet and when it came out with the pin up inside the tip the answer was obvious. I took the spacer out and the bullets started popping out just fine!
Now I just have to get this rifle finished and start shooting it to see if my custom bullets are any good.

[talon]

One subject you won't read about in Corbin's excellent tome on swaging (Handbook #7,8 or 9) is that the 'thick' part of the internal punch is cut to size by the maker depending if you want heavy or light bullets. Light bullets need a thinner 'thick' part where a heavy bullet uses a thicker 'thick' part ( I wish I knew what this thick part is really called). The tail of the internal punch extends from this 'thick' portion and helps align the punch during the swaging process. Now here's the important part: if you ever have a die set made to make both heavy and light bullets, have the maker cut a thin 'thick' section on your internal seating punch and then make you a fat washer to slip over the tail when you go to make your light bullets. A little lube will hold it on the punch stem, usually, but you may have to use a thin wire to fish it out of the press's ram well when you go to change the die. WARNING: as in all cases after you install a die/punch set in any press ALWAYS cycle the press handle very carefully to insure all the parts fit as they should. This is done without jacket or core. The slightest resistance anywhere in the cycle has to be checked out to prevent damage when you go to make your cores/swaged jackets/points or whatever.