.444 Mar, .450 Mar, .45-70

[John C-S]

All experiences welcome. I like Marlin and think I need (want?) One of these. I have some experience with all. I admit I liked the .444 most.

[Pinkerton]

I'm prejudice towards the 444 Marlin myself, but they are all great performers and you can't go wrong with any of the three. The 450 marlin and 45-70 perform the same if you handload.  I have an older 444 marlin that I got a year ago and am very satisfied with it's performance, it shoots about the flattest of the three but that's pretty relative in this platform, the 450 and 45-70 have the weight and power advantage. For me I really feel the 444 is the most versitile but that's just my opinion.    Take a look at the beartooth bullets website, good info on the 444 if that's the one that has your interest.  I Also have some load data a fellow did for the 444 using blue dot for some reduced loads that I haven't tried yet but if you interested let me know.

Good Luck

[Winter Hawk]

The .444 Marlin has suffered much through the years because the only bullets available were designed for the .44 Magnum.  Now that longer, heavier bullets are available, the .444 should really shine!  But as has been said, the 45-70 and .450 Marlin are also very good.  Of the two I would stay with the .45-70 and reload.  The .450 has the same balistics as a souped up .45-70, but costs a bunch more.

-WH-

[EsoxLucius]

I have an older 444 marlin that I got a year ago and am very satisfied with it's performance, it shoots about the flattest of the three...

When both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, given equal sectional density, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration at least as fast as the 444 Marlin, and given equal weight, the 45-70 Gov't will drive a bullet of similar construction and configuration significantly faster than the 444 Marlin. Hence, the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin while delivering more energy to the target and more recoil to the shooter.  In addition, when both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, the 45-70 Gov't and 450 Marlin are virtual ballistic equivalents.

[Mikey]

Ummmm EsoxLucius I don't think I can agree with you.  I'm a 444 fan and since going with the Beartooth Bullet data and slugs I would agree with you even less.

If you handload the 444 will outperform the others either by a short hair or be their equal in velocity with same weight bullets.  Yes, you can get some of the 45-70 loads to the same velocity but the question then becomes one of which one hits harder and penetrates best.  And with that it is pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other.  Even if you don't handload, some of the 444 loads you can buy today are the equal of the 45-70 and the 450.

With my 444s I can shoot pistol bullets from 180 gns (vermit loads, lol) to 405 gn cast gas-checked slugs designed for rifle.  My favorites are the 330 grainers.

There are commercial ammo makers who list the 444 - Cor-Bon, Buffalo Bore and Garrett I believe all produce 444 loads that wop like the hammer of Thor, so to speak.  I like rollin' my own and had an absolute blast using the Beartooth data and slugs.  

My only regret is that the first 444 I ever owned, a 24" barrelled Marlin, did not enjoy the advantages of the Beartooth 'awareness' and I sold it for another rifle.  I now sport 3 Winchester Big Bores in 444, all of which have been 'toothed' (borelapped and stuffed fulla heavy Beartooth loads), and I wouldn't kick any of them over for a 45/70 or a 450.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[EsoxLucius]

Sorry Mikey, you can't deny physics when talking about the potential of these cartridges in Marlin lever guns.  The 45-70 and 450 Marlin have to drive bullets of equal weight significantly faster than the 444 Marlin due to larger case capacity and larger bore.  My previous statements are patently true and you cannot refute them.  I would invite you to cite some facts. Can a 444 Marlin in a Marlin lever gun drive a 300 grain jacketed bullet 2400 fps from a 24" barrel?  It ain't gonna happen.  Even Marshall Stanton has conceded the statements are true.  Now, whether or not one wants to deal with the additional recoil from a 45-70 over a 444 Marlin when both are loaded to their potential in lever guns is another matter.  Or the extra powder the 45-70 requires.  You can't even say with certainty that the 444 Marlin will out penetrate the 45-70 with equal weight bullets because any advantage the 444 might have in sectional density may be countered by the extra energy the 45-70 would have.  So re-read the statements and know the truth.  I have not made any other claims than which are right there in simple English.  I don't have any arguments with other aspects which might make the 444 more attractive to someone.

[Lone Star]

The .444 Marlin has suffered much through the years because the only bullets available were designed for the .44 Magnum.

This is the old wive's tale which has been perpetrated against the .444 for many years.   The truth is that the original 240-grain bullet was designed for the .444 - Remington didn't use a pistol bullet in the .444, they designed a new .444 bullet then used it in the handgun round.  Rick Jameson dispelled this OWT about 20 years ago in Shooting Times by pulling bullets, comparing them, and shooting them into expansion media.

The 265-grain Hornady bullet has been available for about 30 years (Remington even loaded it in their ammo for years) and it was designed specifically for the .444 - but it didn't make the .444 sell.  What really pumped up the .444 was the widespread acceptance of the .45-70 lever rifle.  With the .444 already in place it was accepted by .44 Magnum shooters as a .44 Express.  The .444's ability to use light bullets appealed to many, the 300-grain minimum of the .458s means recoil is always heavy with full-speed loads.

In practical terms there is little field performance difference between the .444 and the two .458" rounds.  Ballistic charts and physics are nice to have, but real-world experience has shown that with appropriate bullets all will fill the same roles.  Buy what you like and know you are not giving up enough to worry about.

[Pinkerton]

EsoxLucius

Please note from my Quote "shoots about the flattest of the three"

This is considering the types of bullets used between the 444 and the 45cals. Yes If you push the 45-70 to max with bullet wt's in it's typical low wt. range and push a heavy for caliber bullet in the 444

the 45-70 Gov't will shoot just as "flat" as the 444 Marlin

Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing out a disagreement to your statements in fact we both agree on one thing for sure.
your quote

In addition, when both are loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns, the 45-70 Gov't and 450 Marlin are virtual ballistic equivalents.

my quote

The 450 marlin and 45-70 perform the same if you handload

in the end the 45-70 and the 444 are similar...yet different and you pick what you like, both able to do something better than the other. (all in my original post)

but what I'm wondering is what bullet you can load (typical for) in the 45-70 that will shoot as "flat" at say a 240gr or 265gr (typical for) in the 444?

[hogship]

I admit I liked the .444 most.

That's a very good reason for getting the 444. If you don't, you'll always wonder if you should have!

I had a 444SS Marlin some years ago.....and I'll have to admit, I do wish I still had it sometimes.....but......I now have a Marlin 1895GS guide gun. I'm really enjoying the guide gun these days.

No matter which you choose between the 444, 45/70, or 450, you ARE talking about a short range proposition. All of these will reasonably fit most any hunting situation within that range limitation very well. If you are wanting to harvest an elk, or larger, the 45/70 would be my choice, but I understand that opinions are like xxxholes!

.....that brings us back to your druthers! Get the 444, for the reasons I mentioned. :wink:

hog

[EsoxLucius]

300 grain Speer UCHP 45-70 Gov't
Sectional Density - .204
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2390 2190 2000 1821 1652 1498 1360
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3804 3194 2665 2209 1818 1495 1231
Path - in. -1.5 1.6 3.0 2.1 -1.4 -8.1 -18.6  
 
240 grain Speer JHP 444 Marlin
Sectional Density - .186
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2499 2244 2005 1783 1578 1397 1244
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3327 2683 2143 1693 1326 1040 825
Path - in. -1.5 1.6 3.0 2.1 -1.4 -8.5 -20.0
 
265 grain Hornady JSP 444 Marlin
Sectional Density - .206
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2273 2069 1877 1696 1530 1382 1253
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3040 2520 2073 1693 1377 1123 924
Path - in. -1.5 1.8 3.0 1.7 -2.5 -10.6 -23.1

265 grain Hornady JSP 444 Marlin (Hornady Light Magnum)
Sectional Density - .206
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2325 2119 1924 1740 1569 1417 1283
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3180 2641 2177 1781 1449 1181 968
Path - in. -1.5 1.7 3.0 1.9 -2.1 -9.6 -21.4

350 grain Hornady RN 45-70 Gov't
Sectional Density - .238
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2190 1997 1814 1642 1487 1347 1228
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3727 3098 2557 2096 1717 1409 1172
Path - in. -1.5 1.8 3.0 1.5 -3.2 -11.9 -25.4

300 grain Speer JSP 444 Marlin
Sectional Density - .233
Indices Range
Range - yds. 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 2150 1968 1797 1634 1487 1354 1240
Energy - ft.-lbs. 3079 2581 2150 1779 1473 1221 1024
Path - in. -1.5 1.9 3.0 1.4 -3.5 -12.2 -25.8

[Pinkerton]

You can get that kind of velocity out of the 45-70 safely?

Honady lists the 350gr for the marlin 1895 at 1900fps max. The Ruger #1 at 2200fps, and the 300gr at 2200fps max. in the marlin. using these figures I'm not seeing the same thing in the loading manuals.

But if your right your right. But does that make my original statement way off the mark?
 

it shoots about the flattest of the three but that's pretty relative in this platform, the 450 and 45-70 have the weight and power advantage

:?

[Mikey]

Sorry EsoxLucius but I ain't kickin' over my 444s for anything in 458 bore.  When the 450 first came out at least one of the gunwriters who evaluated it said plainly - if you own a 444 or a 45-70 don't bother trading them in for the 450, they are all on the same level.  

Paper ballistics are  one thing, actual field proof is another.  Neither the 45-70's 300 gn or the 444 300 gn really hit or penetrate any better, if they are loaded to the same velocity (signifcant 'if' here means handloading).  

I have had great success with the 444 and have never, never felt undergunned with the way mine hit.  

Every caliber we have mentioned has taken the African Big Five and can take anything on the North American Continent.  I think we are rehashing corned beef here.  JMO.  Mikey.

[EsoxLucius]

I have not said that anyone should choose the 45-70 over the 444 Marlin.  All I have done is point out the facts in response to other's statements I feel are in error.  I don't understand the resulting defensiveness.

You can get that kind of velocity out of the 45-70 safely?

Honady lists the 350gr for the marlin 1895 at 1900fps max. The Ruger #1 at 2200fps, and the 300gr at 2200fps max. in the marlin. using these figures I'm not seeing the same thing in the loading manuals.

But if your right your right. But does that make my original statement way off the mark?
 

it shoots about the flattest of the three but that's pretty relative in this platform, the 450 and 45-70 have the weight and power advantage

:?

Pinkerton,

Marlin 1895 45-70 24" barrel
350 grain Hornady RN seated to 2.54"
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
48.5 grains H4198 START 2036 fps 32,200 CUP
54.0 grain H4198 MAXIMUM 2191 fps 39,300 CUP
Hodgdon #27

Marlin 1895 45-70 24" barrel
300 grain Sierra JHP seated to 2.525"
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
55.0 grains H4198 START 2221 fps 27,600 CUP
60.0 grains H4198 MAXIMUM 2424 fps 40,000 CUP
Hodgdon #27

Ruger No. 1 45-70 24" barrel
350 grain Hornady RN seated to 2.54"
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
50.5 grains H4198 START 2104 fps 35,100 CUP
56.0 grain H4198 MAXIMUM 2300 fps 50,000 CUP
Hodgdon #27

Ruger No. 1 45-70 24" barrel
300 grain Sierra JHP seated to 2.525"
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primer
59.5 grains H4198 START 2394 fps 37,300 CUP
63.0 grains H4198 MAXIMUM 2532 fps 50,000 CUP
Hodgdon #27

The Hornady manual is obviously conservative.  They say the Marlin 1895 45-70 loads are limited to 40,000 CUP, and then don't list the actual pressures of the loads. In actuality those loads are around 28,000 CUP.  The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP.

Yes, the data show your statement in bold above is off the mark.  The 444 Marlin does not shoot about the flattest of the three when they are all loaded to their potential in Marlin lever guns.

Mikey, you cannot refute my original statements as they are true, even if you demonstrated you might not have grasped their meaning.  I am not talking about a 300 grain bullet driven the same speed in either, I am talking about potential.  Potential (balance of optimum velocity and accuracy) is usually what all reloaders seek in their endeavors no matter the caliber.  Regarding the potential of each in Marlin lever guns, the 45-70 achieves over 200 fps and 700 fpe more than the 444 Marlin with 300 grain jacketed bullets.  All of the other aspects of the situtation you elude to are another matter entirely.  Will the deer, black bear, hog, elk, moose, caribou, sheep, goat, pronghorn, african plains game or gnat's ass tell the difference when hit with any of them with a well placed shot a from a proper load?  Of course not.

[John C-S]

Our feelings here. We can use manuals of ballistic content whether factory or Beartooth or reloads. One thing though. SAAMI limits safely the PSI factor. Beyond this we are legally and responsibly on our own. Why not use a .444 with North American game? Why go beyond the SAAMI tests to prove a .45-70 better when the .444 Mar is safely there anyway? I think it is a personal endeavor here. I think whether one chooses 450 or 45-70 or 444 is a matter of personal and authentic opinion. I think they are all at least equal--except for the fact that SAAMI favors, safely and commercial, the 450 or 444 over the 45-70. What say you?

[EsoxLucius]

The SAMMI pressure specifications are based on the maximum average pressure that the weakest firearm in circulation chambered for a particular cartridge will withstand.  In the 45-70, that is not the Marlin 1895.  The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 is 40,000 CUP.  According to Marlin you are on your own even if you reload at 28,000 CUP.  And there are commercial 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 that exceed SAAMI specs.  So let's live in the real world, OK?

In addition, who is trying to prove the 45-70 better?  I'm not the one who showed bias by saying, "I'm prejudice towards the 444 Marlin myself" or I'm a 444 fan." It is what it is, that does not necessarily make it better.

[Pinkerton]

You pick what you like in the end. I never realized you could reach that kind of velocity with the 45-70. Thanks, it's been informative.

[Mikey]

Yep, these posts are informative.  It seems that every time this topic comes up, the 45-70/450/444, we thankfully have a large group of experienced shooters to share their insights and information so that those with questions wind up with the best answers, and I think this is one of the better aspects of the Greybeard forums.  Forunately we manage to stay close to the topic and don't meander off too far and eventually manage to get the questions answered.  

Truly fellas, you have to admit that scrolling on through some of the topics on these forums gives one an incredible amount of information and some of the best insights from some of the most experienced shooters around.

These forums and posts are more interesting than most of the gun magazines I get, and they get better when we start evaluating some of the gunwriters and their writings.  

Overall however, it is tough to argue with the success of the 45-70, a 100 year old cartridge that has seen consistent upgrades for modern firearms.  Unfortunatly for the 444, it isn't that old, or old enough to have gone through significant black powder years to have developed the same sort of a historical perspective, although one of our posters is doing just that.  

EsoxLucius - ya'll said (in part) :  Mikey, you cannot refute my original statements as they are true.  I don't and would not.  That would be as inaccurate as it would be immature and your responses were far too well thought out to merit that type of a response.

I am not talking about a 300 grain bullet driven the same speed in either, I am talking about potential. - I accept that, and thank you for the information you have provided.

Will the deer, black bear, hog, elk, moose, caribou, sheep, goat, pronghorn, african plains game or gnat's ass tell the difference when hit with any of them with a well placed shot a from a proper load? Of course not. - And I agree thoroughly and believe this is what some of the gunwriters were alluding to in their articles.  

But, I hafta tellya that the last time I dropped a gnat's ass I let him know what took him down (lololol).  Mikey.

[ONE HOLE 4570]

got both shot both 45-70 leaves a little bigger hole going in & can't tell the diff on exit with either just a lg wound channel & a bigggg exit hole. I also like both & would worry about carring either one. Pick the one you like & go on then pick the other :wink:

[v-man]

since the only one of the 3 that I shoot is the 45-70 it clearly must be the best. I don't have the other 2 so I have to assume that they are no good.

Seriously, I cannot imagine how any of them can be more effective than the results I've seen in my 1895G, 45-70 but on paper I would have to say they are all 3 going to do the job with power to spare.
If I had one of each I would probably need therapy or some kind of medication everytime I tried to decide which one to take to the woods.

Since My deer and hog hunting is usually less that 100 yards I am partial to some pretty serious hand loads with the 405gr JFP. About 1800fps from an 18" inch barrel makes a noticeble impact no matter which end you learn from.

[tom barthel]

I like the .444 because I like the .444.  I own a .45-70.  I like it to.  Mostly I like the .444 because it uses the same cast bullets as my .44 magnum.  I absolutely wound NOT feel under gunned with either.  Both are capable of taking anything that walks crawels slithers or flys.  Just don't miss.

Tom

[service rifleman1]

I use a 444 SS and it is a lot of fun to shoot and load for. As for hunting, if proper bullets are used in the 44 bore, I doubt that game animals would know the difference for they would still be toast. The Speer 300 flat point I would stack up the same weights of 45's for the big game. The Hornady 265 grain was designed for the Marlin in mind and I hear it is also highly regarded in the 44 Magnum chambering. I have been loading some muzzleloading 44 balls(up to three at once with Imr-4227) through my marlin among some lead 240 slugs with reduced loads with Unique. These gallery loads are pleasant to shoot and can be also be quite accurate. As for the 45's I have yet to experience but they are also proven big game getters. Regards