Author Topic: 9x23 (Read 913 times)

williamlayton · « **on:** October 09, 2005, 02:50:24 AM »

OK, I am going to take another run at this.
I am looking for a 9x23 in a 1911. I have been looking--this time--once before, but got off track and bought something else--and cannot find one used. Anybody run across one of these of late that you can pass on the info on where to locate it.
I want to try to find a used one before I get a new one from someone.
I have found one, at collectors firearms, a Vic Tibbits custom SA 1911-a1, very nice with 9x23 and 9mm bar-sto barrels. $2800, gasp, wheeze, cough.
Dang it, when I was looking for a super .38 I could not find one now it is the other way around.
Blessings

Reed1911 · « **Reply #1 on:** October 10, 2005, 01:26:33 AM »

:shock: 2800.00

I don't often see them used but I will keep an eye out for you. For new I'll target an offhand price of 700-900 depending on what features you are looking for from our custom 'smith. If you want to look into it further or discuss it with me; feel free to PM or e-mail.

kjeff50cal · « **Reply #2 on:** October 10, 2005, 09:51:08 AM »

Quote

:shock: 2800.00

Yes, Collectors Firearms are what you call a New & "Pre-owned" gunshop

. Bargains are few and far between although I got a screaming deal on a Ruger Standard .22 -6 inch Model (1961) because it was not "perfect" NIB condition. It cost $120 with honest holster wear and shoots great too!!!

kjeff50cal

williamlayton · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2005, 01:11:55 AM »

Kjeff-
I went to the Pasadena show this last weekend. I had just about stopped going as prices in the show are generally MUCH greater than a shop.
For instance, there were a bunch or .38 supers but they were easily more than $200 higher than Collectors, no 9x23's though.
I am not going to give up but I refuse to be bitten.
I am still looking.
Blessings

PA-Joe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 11, 2005, 01:20:15 AM »

Get a $100.00 CZ-52 and have it rechambered!

Reed1911 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 11, 2005, 01:33:31 AM »

The CZ-52 is not up to handle the 9x23 Win pressures. The 9x23 Largo pressures it will handle but I don't think that it is the way to go.

wile326 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 11, 2005, 08:28:35 AM »

Get a 38 super and rebarrel it. I used to have a Delta elite and had 3 barrels for it. 10mm, 38 super, and 9x23 they all worked with the same slide. I just changed the barrel. I know a few others who do this also.

williamlayton · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:18:22 AM »

Wile-
That is another way of approaching the situation.
What I KNOW is NOTHING. What I read/have read about this weapon is another situation.
Having read much, here and, mainly there, is this:
The 9x23 is a VERY high pressure round.
The 9x23 has a problem with feed reliability from a supported/ramped barrel. Reliability is, with me, the number one priority. There is always a chance for malfunction but for any situation, be it games or gunfights, one should have a great deal of confidence going in.
The 9x23 round should be used with Winchester brass as this round produces pressures very near rifle pressures and Winchester brass is the onliest one which will reliable withstand these pressures. It was designed for these pressures as opposed to being produced for this size, which some are. For instance, it has been recommended that small rifle primers be used exclusively due to pressures produced.
There is some concern from gunsmiths or, maybe from some gunsmiths, that reaming an existing barrel to the 9x23 is an issue due to the specs of reamers on the market not being consistent. The thought was that the 9x23 reamers being produced had no consistency from supplier to supplier and that one produced for the Winchester brass was the best choice.
It has been suggested that a Bar-Sto barrel be the choice of barrels. I have yet to determine the reason for this though, but, believe it to be because of being unsupported and produced specifically for this round.
There are, it seems, some specific internals which are different from the 9mm or .38 super in order to make it reliable enough for games or gunfights.
Reed's, one of the site advertisers here, has made some suggestions and offers. I appreciate his input and will be in touch with him at a later date but no choices or decisions have been conclusively made.
Dawson Precision has supplied me with some thoughts also and since they will do a build up on a STI frame it has some merits.
It is a quandary ain't it folks. I say that from the perspective of a person that has need to take advice on this subject rather than having any ACTUAL hands on experience in this area.
I will add as a finality to my thoughts. I like caliber specific weapons. This is a more expensive way to go, but, for my mind, it is what I do.
These are my reads not my findings. I am still interested in thoughts and opinions though so keep em coming.
Blessings

wile326 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2005, 07:49:41 AM »

The internals between the 38 super and 9mm and 9x23 are the same. I would recommend starline brass over the winchester it is stronger. Have also experimented with making 9x23 out of 223 brass. cutting to length and reaming out the neck. The current starline is about the same strength as this. I fired several thousand rounds of 9 x23 through different pistols. Reliability will be determine by how well it is built, primarily how well everything is fitted. When I build a 1911 based pistol, i use all oversized rough cast parts and finish and polish them to the individual gun.A high pressure round needs a supported chamber or else you will sufer case failure. I would recommend Bar-sto barrels also. I am not even sure they make an unsupported 9x23 barrel, but it has been a while since I built one. I am a DOD armour have been for over 20 years, including 6 years at Quantico, built some test guns for that caliber for evaluation. The saami pressure ratings for the 9 x23 is 40,000 cup, for 9mm it is 35,000. 9mm +p is 38,500, 38 super is 36,500 So they are all close. You can check the pressures here:http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm One reason a lot of 9X23 shooter are using dela elite slides is that they are heavier than than a standard slide, it slows down the slide speed and prevents premature unlocking of the barrel from the slide and prevents battering of the frame. THe 9x23 is not as popular as it used to be because the 38 super+p loads are very close to it with in 100 fps and the 9mm +p are about 200 fps behind. If you do reload for it and use rifle primers work up your loads slowly because the rifle primers will develop higher pressures with lower amounts of powder.

williamlayton · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2005, 11:54:41 AM »

Wile-
This is not to start an arguement or even come close to saying you are wrong. OK, OK!
The cut aways of the starline and Winchester in this caliber I have seen show more mass/thicker walls in the Winchester and according to the article I read was designed for the higher pressures of the 9x23 while the Starline was not. The basis for the conclusions, I saw, were to the effect that reloading Starline was not a good idea because of the thinner walls.
Now as I said in the other post-I know nothing- I have read as much as I can.
R, Dane Burns does not suggest you use Winchester brass he said it was the only option for the reloader.
I am now in more of a quandry than before.
Blessings

wile326 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2005, 02:43:36 PM »

I definetly dont want to start an argument. This is my release and entertainment. I am in Iraq at the moment and these forums give me a little taste of home and a mental release. I was just throwing my 2 cents worth in. I have used starline in the past, and have had good results. That is why i recommend them. They make a brass now for the 9 x23 that they call super comp. I believe it is thicker but not sure. I would try both and work up slowly, I have seen them blow before and it is not a pretty site.