Author Topic: Case Filler--What to use? (Read 1478 times)

HL · « **on:** September 21, 2005, 07:28:35 AM »

What do you use for filler for reduced loads? I am loading some cast bullets in my hornet and will only be using 3-4 grains of Green Dot for starters. Loading manual says to use Dacron, but I am unable to find any in any of my area stores.

Can anything else be used?

I appreciate any comments.

Thanks

HL

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #1 on:** September 21, 2005, 09:35:46 AM »

Back in the days when I was doing that I used Cream of Wheat. But, be careful and work up loads cautiously. I'd steer clear of Bon Ami!!!

Steve P · « **Reply #2 on:** September 21, 2005, 09:42:42 AM »

For a hornet, I wouldn't use anything with that load. When using cream of wheat, you need a seperator to keep it out of the gun powder. Dacron could ball up and damage the fragile brass.

Steve

jtaylor1960 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 21, 2005, 10:08:45 AM »

I have used PSB from Precision in a few of my cast bullet loads.It is easy to use.I use my powder measure to charge each case evenly.You must use a compressed load so the powder stays in place.It will raise pressures over a load with no filler but, with a light load this is probably not a concern.Good luck,Jeff Taylor.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #4 on:** September 21, 2005, 02:38:49 PM »

Sure you have dacron. Ripped jacket or sleeping bag. Sewing and craft stores sell it as "polyester fiber". Dacron is just a brand name. $5 will buy a lifetime supply. You want just sufficient to loosely fill the airspace. 2/10 a grain is about right, and weigh them until you get a real good feel for how much that is.

I will not use a solid filler in a bottleneck case although I will in straight cases. No Cream of Wheat, no grits, no cornmeal, no nothing. Too much chance of a jam at the neck, imo.

I also do not use even dacron in my real expensive rifles. Risk is slight, and I'll gamble a $200 barrel, but not a thousand dollar gun that can't be rebarreled.

JBMauser · « **Reply #5 on:** September 22, 2005, 11:03:50 AM »

I use kapok as it does not melt but burns or floats in the wind. The previous post about polly fill is correct. WallMart comes to mind as a common source for it. You could use a small ball of good old toilet paper as well. Cotton has been mentioned but it has more bulk than the afore mentioned materials. I agree that grits, corn meal and COW can be a real problem in a bottleneck cartridge. I read once where a guy pulled the bullets on some rounds he had used such fillers in and the stuff had set up like concrete and he had to pick it out. JB

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2005, 02:37:24 AM »

What leftoverdj said. The stuff is called Polyester bat fill - used in making quilts and the like. A roll or bag costs about2 dollars and last for thousands of rounds. FOlks like Marshall Stanton at Beartooth Bullets recommends using that stuff when using small powder charges and soft lead bullets to borelap a rifle or pistol. I have used it in borelapping and then plinking afterward with my 444s and have never had a problem.

It also tends to clean your barrel a bit after each shot and I can appreciate that. HTH. Mikey.

Robert · « **Reply #7 on:** September 23, 2005, 05:16:48 AM »

I have been waiting to see what other had to say about this. I think it is best to develop loads that do not use fillers....with fast powders like Red Dot, Blue Dot, and Bullseye....or with bulky powders like AA XMP5744.
I had a very bad experience with Cream of Wheat. I got a bullet stuck in the bore of my old 30 Remington, and the cream of wheat was packed in behind the bullet ....was neary a s hard as the bullet. This got me to thinking.... If this kind of filler hardens behind the shoulder of the case upon firing...it could get very ugly.

sundogg1911 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2005, 05:46:34 AM »

you can get dacron at just about any sewing/craft store. I agree that it's best to use a powder the fills up the brass, but I shoot a hellovalotta 45 ACP. and a pound of WST last's me a lot longer than other powders that fill the case.

Castaway · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2005, 06:10:33 AM »

Two or so years ago, and I think it was here at the GB site, I read a well written article on fillers. Wish I'd copied and pasted it for future reference. Talked about synthetic fillers, natural fillers and chamber ringing. The essence of the article was that the writer was adamant about not using a synthetic in older guns, but was not as against it in newer (1930's? and up). I stopped using fillers altogether after a buddy ringed his new High Wall (45-70) using cotton.

HL · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2005, 11:21:08 AM »

As a follow up, I ended up not using a fille and everything went just fine.

However, the reduced loads for the hornet weren't worth writing home about.

I did find a good load for my 45 gr. cast in the hornet using 296. Velocity is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2500-2600fps, though I have not chrono'd yet.

No leading and groups were within 1" at 50yds which is what I plan on taking turkey with this season.

I let you know what the velocity is when I have time to get out the chronograph.

Thanks for the suggestions.

HL

Slamfire · « **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2005, 01:08:11 PM »

The stuff sold for buffer in magnum shot shells is supposed to work well. I thought the name was Grex, but I couldn't find it using Goggle.

Kragman71 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2005, 03:22:39 PM »

Hello,
There is a product called PuffLon.that is a very fine powder just designed to be used as a cartridge filler. It works fine.I use my Lee powder measure kit spoons to get the exact same amount in each cartridge.I have never heard of any problem using this stuff.
I did discover that,if you compress it,it will form a solid ball,over time,just like any cereal(cream o wheat,grits, etc).That's why I use the measuring spoons.I fill the case,without compressing the powder.
However,90% of my rifle cast bullet loads use Dacron.I never found a use for fillers in pistol loads,and the only filler in the litle Hornet cases are for fire forming to my Kilbourne Hornet rifle.
In your casse,I recommend the Puflon.
Frank

Scota · « **Reply #13 on:** November 03, 2005, 12:31:00 PM »

Do not use fillers. It is a bad deal. If you do you will eventually damage your gun and/or yourself. You will likely ring your chamber. Think of it this way, if fillers were such a hot idea, why is that no ammo manufacturer uses them? Answer, it is a bad idea.

Yes, yes.......I can hear it now. "I have stuffed my loads with grits for 50 years and nothing bad has happened". Maybe so. I also watched a guy ruin a mint high wall doing the same trick.

Get some SR4759. You can get it on the cheap from Bartlet Reloaders. I just received 24# today. 9-bucks a pound. It is extremely bulky and the speed is about like 4227. I will probably never use it all up. I will however never want for cast bullet powder. I will never be forced to make do with shotgun powder and fillers. I have the real deal. This stuff is made for cast bullets and works better than anything else I have tried.

The IMR website lists a 4759 load for the 22 Hornet. 45 gr bullet, 8gr 4759, 2000 fps, 24,700 CUP. It is a COMPRESSED load. Drop that by two grains and you will have a bulky charge that will probably give about 13-1600 fps. No filler required.

JBMauser · « **Reply #14 on:** November 03, 2005, 06:11:14 PM »

Scota, Do not make a jump in logic that since ammo manufacturers do not use fillers it must be for a reason. Ammo makers are not in the business of making light loads at all. If anything they want to stay on the top end of Sammi specs. Never mind that no one would buy custom made ammo with the extra cost and care to include a filler. They are in the dump and stuff business to turn a buck. your comments about bulkier powders are correct but a bulkier powder may not give you the barrel harmonics that result in the best results. using fillers is simply an attempt to put powder back to the condition it was made to burn in, a even stack.

To HL, your poor results with the load you have may in fact improve with a filler. My groups with the same load are smaller with a tuft of kapok positioning the powder over the primer. It is my contention that since a primer alone has enough force to move a bullet a few inches down the barrel when it is fired in an empty case, that when the ignition occures in a light load the powder is driven forward against the base of the bullet and a filler of kapok or darcron/poly is compressed to the thickness of a business card and it protects the base of the bullet somewhat. All that occures is that the powder is ignited like a cigarette rather than being lit like a flame thrower over a pond of powder. Powder is designed to be ignited as a stack not flashed over. There are concerns and you should consider them but you should know that many achieve excellent results with a bit of filler and not to many years ago before all companies were so cowed by lawyers and law suits manualls gave loads with fillers! Lyman for one and all of the Cast bullet manuals I have that are compulation of articles NRA and Handloader mag. gave glowing recomendations and "how to's" on the use of fillers. FWIW JB

Scota · « **Reply #15 on:** November 04, 2005, 05:50:07 AM »

I am a new guy here and don't want to come in her and pee on your campfire. I will therefore add a little more then shut up.

Ammunition is being marketed by both Federal and Remington called "reduced recoil" ammunition. These are reduced loads. They are basically making a load that we could shoot a cast bullet on top of.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_51/ai_n15402267

They are using reduced charges of normal rifle powders. A buddy bought some for his kid to use in a 308. The powder was extruded rifle powder of some sort. It appears that they just used less powder. They did not use shotshell powder and stuff fiber in there. Why they are not using a modern version of 4759, I am not sure. Probably because they don't have any and a special run is not cost effective for the amount of ammunition they have to sell.

The accuracy of the Remington 308 offering is terrible in my friend's rifle. He ended up using normal factory ammo for the hunt.

I know the goal of cast bullet target shooting is not necessarily to be practical. It is about having fun. Lobbing cast bullets accurately with shotshell and pistol powders is fun. I guess I would say that since it is a target shooting endevour, simply elevate the muzzle before shooting. Large capacity cases are not very good for cast bullets. If you are really into this, make up a rifle using a smaller capacity case. 30-30 comes to mind. I have wondered about 32 H/R mag and 32-20 for large cast bullets. Both cases would work great with high density fast powder. How about a long neck 30 Herret?

Lead pot · « **Reply #16 on:** November 05, 2005, 07:32:30 AM »

The use of fillers in bottle necked cases or a tapered case like the .22 hornet is not the smartest thing to do.
It can even cause problems in the straight walled cases.
If you want to shoot that Hornet as a .22 rim fire get an insert and shoot the .22 short or a CB cap.

Kurt

JBMauser · « **Reply #17 on:** November 06, 2005, 04:41:42 PM »

Scota, I am aware of the new lighter loads. I do not put them in the same range as a cast load that can run 1600-2000fps. I agree that there is a demand for lower power loads. I for one never load at max on anything, jacketed or cast. I also do not make blanket comments advising against the use of fillers. There are some concerns and that should be discussed and a handloader should be aware of them but many people a lot smarter than I have been useing them and recomending them for many years. There are those who have had problems and that should be discussed as well. I will point out that different powders and burn rates set up different barrel harmonics and some barrels will like a powder with a low density and others don't It is not a bad thing to test someting for suitability to one's own arm and a filler may be an effective load system or it may not. If someone wants to look down that trail (getting closer to this campfire you seem to wish to relieve yourself on) they may wish to know what some of who have done it have found and why we continue to do it. If you have specific evidence to make your blanket statment this is the place to voice it. I for one will read it with interest but do not point at others who are owned by their legal department and say "they don't do" and if this is what you call a campfire?? print it out on your printer and have at it. It's your carpet.... JB

cooper · « **Reply #18 on:** November 07, 2005, 08:28:45 AM »

How about that new "Trail Boss" powder? Has anyone treid it in the Hornet for reduced loads? (I haven't even been able to find it yet). From what I understand, only about 3 grains or so should fill-up a Hornet case.

For my Hornet reduced loads, I used Win. 231, and a couple others, but have settled on AAC #5 with the Speer 46 gr. jacketed flatnose bullet. MV is still a bit too high for me, at around 1750 fps. It is a little too destructive on squirrels.

For the poster who mentioned grex? That was Winchester's granulated polyethylene shot buffer called "Super Grex". It has been discontinued for some time now, but every once in a great while you may be able to find a jar.

Ballistic Products makes at least 2 similar shot buffers - one called #47, and another one. They can be used for fillers too.

Puff-Lon is much finer-grained that any of the fillers I mentioned above.

gazz · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2005, 03:14:58 PM »

I knew a guy who used a filler of cream of wheat in his 45-70 trapdoor over black powder. When he fired it, and evetually recovered his wits, he saw that the trapdoor was blown open and the empty case was sitting on his hat. Examination of his other cartridges showed that to filler had set like concrete, and evidently jacked up the pressure.
Don't do it.
Cheers, gazz

Robert · « **Reply #20 on:** November 14, 2005, 06:51:54 AM »

Amen Brother!