Author Topic: OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.  (Read 1080 times)

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Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« on: October 04, 2005, 07:55:44 AM »
I like to describe myself as being frugal.  Others might call me cheap, a tight wad or worse.  The new pickup I bought came with the OnStar and XM radio systems.  These items do not come cheap, and they require addition fee's down the road.  I plan on dropping the XM satellite radio service. The only way I could get the Z71  off-road package at the time of purchase was to get the other two items.

During my career I have had vehicles with taxpayer provided radio system to communicate with a dispatcher.  Many a time I wished I had the same system in my personal vehicle.  Many times people are injured in the outdoors and emergency service's are delayed until somebody gets into a small town to  find a pay phone or other source of communications.  I know that pay phones are disappearing across the country.  When travelling across  Nevada if I found one, it did not work.  Cell phones have taken the profit out of pay phones.

But there are limits to most under powered cell phones.  The .6 watts does not make the grade many places a hunter travels.  Boosters can be bought for a few hundred dollars.  I know of some emergency responders who have them.  OnStar claims the system in the new GM vehicles are several times more powerful then the standard cell phone.  And if you press the emergency button the OnStar operator also receives your lat/long from the built in gps function.

Yesterday I gave the system a try.  Most of the day I was 25 to 35 miles from known cell phone towers.  I tried to make numerous cell phone calls and failed to get a signal or make a connection.  These attempts were made while I was on ridge tops or peaks.  Not while I was in deep canyons.  From one point on a logging road I had a view back across the mountains to town, many miles away.  Plus I had the advantage of about 3000 feet in elevations.  No luck with the cell phone.  I then tried OnStar from the same location.  It worked great.  For those that have not tried OnStar there is both a phone option, and an emergency option.

Later in the day I was returning home and I tried to call my wife from another location.  I wanted to let her know what route I was taking off the mountain.  If dinner came up in the conversation it was purely accidental.  Again my cell phone did not work from the location but OnStar did.  I made my calls from a stationary location.

A friend who has OnStar in his pickup loves it, but was not able to get reception from a remote lake.  There are limits.

Yesterday was decision day.  Would I keep OnStar or drop it.  I decided to keep it.  Having spent a career dealing with an emergencys I know that communications are a key to emergency assistance.  I have tried satellite phones on the job and they work.  Some of the time, you have to have a clear view of the sky to get a signal.  Plus I cannot afford the cost.

I am new to OnStar, I am sure there are a lot of new and more experience users out there.  Now that hunting seasons are in swing is it a usable tool?

A couple of weeks ago my brother was in a remote area with his seven year-old son with him.  He busted a tire, and he had to put on his spare.  What if something had happen to him in the process?  Like the vehicle slipping off the jack and trapping him.  He had tested his cell phone and did not have coverage there.  But would have OnStar worked for him?  Maybe, he was at 6000 foot elevation, and he might have hit a distance mountain top cell.  I know I will explain to my wife, grandkids, and hunting partners how it works.  Rather not give a training session when the jack slips.

Will it help you in a disaster?  Maybe, but if cell phones towers go down it will not work.  Your hope is that the more powerful unit will reach out to  distance towers.  One of the problems during a disaster is that people over load the cell phone system with #8% calls.  The system has limits and the people in need of help and emergency responders need priority.  There are some  brain dead people out there.  I recently watch NEWS coverage of a bunch of people standing along side a roadway, watching a distant wildfire.  They were all excited, and laughing with a cell phone to their ear.  They were getting a rush out of describing the fire to people on the other end.  They were gawkiers, wasting air space and putting others in danger.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline savageT

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« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2005, 08:00:54 AM »
Siskiyou,
Thanks for your insight concerning OnStar.  We own a 2001 Buick Park Avenue equipped with OnStar. I have never thought it necessary to use it....however!  I didn't realize the range was an advantage w/ OnStar, as I always carry a cellphone in the car.  I also like the gps feature built in.
Just wondered if you knew if anything on the OnStar mirror transceiver works if your suscription has run out?  As I purchased this automobile a few years ago used, I've never tried using any of the buttons.  Looking forward to your further evaluations.

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2005, 08:17:34 PM »
Check out OnStar.com.  You might get some answers there.  There are three generations of OnStar units in GM vehicles.  There is a list on the web page.  Explorer the website, and it may answer some of your questions.  Of course the bottom line is they want to sell OnStar.  But cellphone providers are require to provide 911 connections to all users.  Subscribers, and non-subscribers.

You have me wondering if a non-paid subscriber would get an operator in an emergency.  I will call OnStar in the next few days and ask.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Graybeard

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2005, 05:52:27 AM »
I've often thought I'd like to have that feature but not enough to buy another GM product just to get it. Shame they are the only one with it.

What cell phone company do you use? I used to have Nextel but found that as soon as I left major cities and interstate highways I had no service. Got tired of that crap as I don't go away from home to be in a big city or on an interstate.

I did a lot of checking and chose Cingular. They appear to cover well over 90% of the entire nation with service. I know out in the middle of the OK panhandle when not many other than local companies worked Cingular did. They really are the "all over" network as they claim to be.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline victorcharlie

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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 12:55:41 PM »
I had Cingular for 6 years......started with an old 3 watt analog bag phone.......I changed to Verizon in 03.....better coverage around E. Tennessee........Now that sprint and Nextel have merged, hopefully they'll have better coverage, but I still think they lag way behind Verizon or Cingular as far as coverage.......they do have some nice data features that the big guys are trying to bring online to stay competitive............Maybe in the years to come, the gaps between coverage will shrink.....My buddy in the business says the company he works for only adds towers if the business is there........no subscribers, no towers..........I've read post from guys in North Dakota that say when analog goes out they won't have coverage at all.....Hopefully the competition will force cheaper fares and better coverage.......and to think........when I was a kid, only James Bond and Dick Tracy had such cool stuff!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2005, 11:33:51 AM »
Savage-T:  I called OnStar this morning and asked them if the OnStar Emergency button still worked on units that no longer subscribed to OnStar.  The answer was a loud and clear, YES!

OnStar has been around for a number of years.  Early vehicles were equipped with Analog-Only equipment.  These cannot be upgraded to digital.  The next generation of vehicles were equipped with Analog/digital-Ready equipment.  These units can be upgraded to digital.  Vehicles are now being equipped with Dual-Mode(Analog/Digital.  In 2002 the FCC ruled that wireless carriers will no longer be required to support analog wireless after January 1, 2008. The change over is also being made in Canada.  So what happens to users in rural Canadian and the States?  

OnStar gripe!  Current models operate on a voice recognition system.  I called and talked to an OnStar advisor about the problems I am having with it this morning.  He said there are problems with the system. :noway:

You can currently save up to 20 NAME TAGS.  Phone numbers.

It was dark last night when I return to my vehicle from hunting.  I had a two hour trip back home and wanted to advise the wife that I made it out of the woods again.  I hit the Phone button and received a response from the system.  I then said, CALL.  It then asked me for the name tag.  I responded, "HOME."  It came back "Paul."  I tried four more times and it came back with four different Name Tags I had created, but not HOME.  A rather frustrating experience.  I drove for about an hour and then called the wife on the cell phone.

I was advised to trick the system.  Instead of HOME, try MY HOME.  Or try HOUSE.  Sad that you have to trick a system you bought and paid for.

By nature and a lot of experience my radio(telephone) voice is loud and clear.  But I must not have an OnStar voice.  How do you program a system to respond to all of the Regional accents in the United States and Canadian.  There has to be another option, such as using existing pushbuttons on the radio to put a number into the system.  When you place a call the radio is muted, when you receive a call it comes over the radio speakers.

This should not be a problem in an emergency.  Just push the Red Emergency button and you will get an OnStar Emergency Team representative.

If you have an OnStar equipped vehicle you can push the Blue OnStar button to speak to a Service Advisor.  There should be no charge for this call.  They can advise you on which factory-installed equipment your vehicle has.  Have your OnStar account number or you vehicle VIN available.


NO GM VEHICLE IN MY GARAGE!


Have a cellphone, but no amp!  A couple of routes to go.  An external antenna, or an amplifier with an external amphire.  It will get your .6 watt cellphone up to 3 watts.  I have a great external magnetic antenna.  It uses the roof of the vehicle as a ground plane.  The problem is that my current cell phone does not have a plug for the antenna adaptor.  There is a great deal of built in obsolescence in the electronic industry.  Every community needs the expertise of the guy who runs the Radio Shack store in Moab, Ut.  Because of the isolated location he knew how to get the most out of electronic communications.

I need to explorer a new antenna adaptor for my cell phone.    The problem is replacement time of cell phones is about every two years.  If you spend $250-$350 dollars on an amplifier/antenna for your cell phone will you be able to use it on your next unit.

Remember if you are out of your service area you might get a response to a 911 call by another provider.  If you are in an area that gets outstanding cell phone service, you are out of the woods.[/i][/b]
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline savageT

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2005, 08:26:35 AM »
Siskiyou,
Thanks for the update on OnStart.  My wife's and my cell phones were purchased at Wal-Marts and utilize prepaid minutes.  She has TracFone and mine is AllTel.  I have travelled up and down the eastern coastline from New York to Florida and have not lost service with either phones.  Not saying it can't happen but the weakest link is right in my own home in Central NY (2-3 bars signal).
Glad to know I can get emergency help with OnStar even though I'm not subscribing.

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2005, 09:28:34 AM »
Savage-T:  It sounds like you have what fits your needs.  And you have OnStar in an emergency at no extra cost.

I tried out OnStar again yesterday.  After spending a day out on the lake I loaded my boat and move up into the parking lot parking against a hill.  The reason was to reduce chances of getting a cell phone connection.  From years of experience I know that my .6 watt cell phone would not work out of the parking lot.  I normally have to pull out of the drainage to a ridge top to get out.  Then I must stand on my pickups tailgate or on top of the boat to get a signal.  I again tried my cell phone and could not get out.

Again I have problems with the voice recognition system.  On my third try it worked.  I was able to talk to my wife and the signal was very strong on both ends.  I need to keep on working with it.  This is one place that I would like to have a good signal.  It is rather isolated at times.  When I am out fishing till dark I do not know what is waiting at the launch ramp.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline savageT

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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2005, 08:45:56 AM »
Siskiyou,
I was told yesterday by someone knowledgable that OnStar has satellite linked communication rather than tower to tower as in cellphones.  I responded I knew that OnStar was equipped w/GPS which requires satellite link-up, but didn't know about voice communication.  Can you confirm this????????

Jim
savageT........Have you hugged a '99 lately?

Of all the things I've lost in my life, I miss my mind the most.

Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2005, 07:38:27 PM »
If you read OnStars information you will find out that it is tower to tower.  OnStar says that they do not have coverage in some areas.  The OnStar satellite connection is the gps tail that is transmitted from the users unit to the Onstar emergency desk.  The OnStar equiped vehicle has a gps reciever built into it.  This does not mean the vehicle has a gps screen for navigating.  But the source of the gps data is from the government satellites.  The same data can be used to track an OnStar vehicle if it is stolen.

A friend tried his OnStar system in the Serria Nevada Mountains.  He was in a canyon with the Serria Crest to the East, and tall mountains to the North and South.  Parked on a long dam he had a clear view of the sky over head, and to the West.  OnStar would not work at this location.  I know from personel experience that satillite phones work in that area.

Many cellphones now have the ability to transmitt gps information.  As the technology moves into place a 911 operator will be able to tell the exact location of a call.  This is beyond tracking O.J.'s cellphone call by the towers receiving the call.  Your cellphones my have a gps enable option.

I believe at time's OnStar advertising implies that that it is linked to satellites.  Trickey, that is were the gps information comes from, you are right.

A point of interest is that OnStar offers to tie your use into a "Verizon" billing plan.

My experience with using very expensive satillite phones are that there is always a lag time.  What is happening is you message is being recieved by the satillite, and it then repeats the message, creating a lag.  Because this message is going out into space the lag time is greater then using a VHF/UHF mountain top repeater.
There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.

Offline Siskiyou

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OnStar, yes, no, maybe, never, my thoughts.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2005, 10:36:51 AM »
Five Day Update

Yesterday I made a trip that was over 62 miles one way back into the mountains.  On a ridge top about 29 miles from the nearest phone tower I tried the cell phone and OnStar without success.  Clear sky back towards the known tower was lacking.    A few mile more and I took a 4x4 road towards a drainage.  I noticed clear sky out to the SE and gave OnStar a try.  I had a very poor connection but was able to speak to my wife a short time.  The signal was poor and we broke off the call.  I could not get a connection on the cell phone.

Later that evening I went out on a logging road that was 25-29 miles from the nearest know cell tower.  I had a clear view to the NW.  I was able to get a good connection to my home number.  I was not able to get a connection with my cell phone.

My 2005 version OnStar unit works both on Analog and Digital.  Could I made the same phone call on a Digital only version.  I think not!  Digital does not have the coverage(range) that analog has.  Congress rolled over some years back to the electronics industry to switch the Nation to Digital.  They promised that technology would create more frequency space, that more users would benefit from better communications, and campaign funds would grow.  

The bottomline is that rural America has not benefited, and it has cost the taxpayers a huge amount of money.  Very good public safety radio systems have been replaced with weaker ones.  A portable radio that use to cost an agency $500, now cost more then $2500.  Many radio's have not been changed over from wide-band to narrow band.  All part of the great plan.  Nothing like talking to a  helicopter from a narrow band system to the helicopter who is on a wide band radio.  Or talking car-to-car with a LEO from another agency when one radio has been brought up to date, but the other has not.  They are just close enough to provide broken, frustrating communications.  Have we not heard about the communication problems in the area hit by the hurricanes.  I wonder how the campaign chest are doing?

Idealistically there will be thousands of new cell phone towers constructed across the US and Canada by 2008 when analog cell phone service will go away in the US.  We have seen an increase in cell phone towers along the Interstate Highway system, and areas of rapid growth.  And outdoorsmen have benefitted.  But the biggest benefit has been on near densely populated areas and along the Interstate Highway system.  One of my hunting partners has both a 3-watt analog bag phone, and the little .6-watt cell phone.  Every fall he goes to his local cell phone service provider and signs his bag phone.  I have seen the difference out in the woods.  Nothing on the little phone, but the old ugly bag phone does the job.  Of course part of the gain is the larger antenna on roof.

What about cell phones, OnStar, and 911.  In the OnStar system there is a gps chip that sends a position description along with your signal.  The OnStar people can provide that information to 911.  But what about when you are out in the woods or on your way down the Coast and have a 911 emergency.  At the end of 2005 all area are suppose to have "Enhanced 911" systems in place.  The Enhanced 911 systems are dependent on a number of factors.  The cell phone providers, the customers, and the 911 centers.  

The 911 centers are taxpayer funded and many States have collected taxes to pay for the enhancements.  In New York these funds have been used to buy fire fighters boots, and pay for dry cleaning of uniforms.  In California $$$53 million of enhancement funds have been spent otherwise.  These two States are not alone.  At least three States had done nothing towards funding or enhancing the system.

Verizon's and some other carriers system are two fold.  Their new phones have a gps chip in it.  So when one of their chip equipped phones is in service it is transmitting it's location.  If you are a long time customer and you have not upgrade your cell phone or if you have an old bag phone you maybe out of luck.  Verizon and others are also upgrading their equipment to process the gps signal.  Verizon says that they are 91% in compliance in California.

Other providers are using a program that uses triangulation of the signal between cell phone towers.  This is great if you staying in an area surrounded by cell phone towers.  That means that two or more cell phone towers must be receiving you signal.  

So you need to call 911.  Hopefully your battery is charged up.  Give 911 you emergency need.  Your phone number including area code.  911 I need an ambulance for a broken leg, I am located at.................., my phone number is 530-...-.....  I am in a white Toyota.  I smell gas, send the fire department, and police.  911 will ask your name, and phone number because they may need to call you back.  

So what is happening in the 911 Center, one dispatcher is talking to you and getting your information and typing it, into the computer.  Another dispatcher is monitoring the call and responding fire, ambulance and law enforcement.  There is a time element, but things are moving fast.  Using the information provided by you, or using data from an enhanced system the dispatcher creates an incident card.  Once the location is imputed on the card the Computer Aided Dispatch System selects the proper fire stations, IMS, and LE units for the response.  The units are then responded by radio, paging systems, or telephone to other agencies.  Or by voice to other dispatchers in a mulit-agency center.

What bogs down 911.  There is a roll for the press during major emergencys.  Be they fire, flood or earthquake.  Systems are in place to get information out to local radio and TV stations.  In the West local radio stations do a good job of working with fire information officers.  Listen to the radio station, do not call 911 for information.

911 centers are handling numerous emergencies at the same time, not just the structure fire at the end of street.  There are vehicles accidents, sick kids, old deer hunters with a faulty pacemaker, and little old ladys who have fallen out of bed.  They are giving directions to a caller on how to perform life saving CPR to a loved one.  These people need help.  Callers wanting general information are bogging down the system.  They delay assistance to those who need help.  911 Centers many times cover more then one county, not just a neighborhood.

Call 911 to report an emergency, not to update your gossip.  If emergency equipment is not at an emergency do not assume somebody has reported it.  I must admit that I stereotype people at times.  A while back I left out early towing my boat when I came across a roll-over accident. Three or four white, males dressed in black with their caps on backwards were walking around.  I could not see any blood.  They looked like a gang.  I did not stop, but I called 911 on the cell phone.  I got the California Highway Patrol dispatch center.  I asked them if they had a roll over accident reported at the location.  They had not.  They took my name and confirmed my phone number.  I would have swore that I spotted one of those boys on a cell phone.  I learn the next day they were arrested for stealing the car they rolled over.  

I know the California Highway Patrol dispatch centers have been able to identify cell phone numbers for a long time.  I was passing through Sacramento on I-5 around 4 a.m. one morning when I came across a smashed vehicle in the center lane.  I called 911 and talked to the CHP.  A few minutes later they called me back asking if there was a second vehicle.  No it was a hit-and-run accident.  I know that I did not give them my number on the first report.  I think a lot of responses depend on local technology.  The CHP has made it clear they want to get out of the general 911 business.  Originally cell phone 911 calls were routed to State units that handle traffic because cell phones were pictured as being car-phones.  We are beyond that stage.

I have eight months to decided if I will re-new my subscription for OnStar.  At this point I do not think I will.  I will still have the emergency service, and I can call the wife on the cell phone when I get closer to home.  

XM Radio.   As I travelled up the mountain roads yesterday the radio kept cutting out when I was in big timber or steep canyons.  It worked fine on standard am, and fm radio.  Frankly I switched over to the cd player after a bit.  Nice to select what you want to hear from the get go.  Yesterdays mail had a notice to renew the service, I tossed it.  It is okay, but not for me.

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There is a learning process to effectively using a gps.  Do not throw your compass and map away!

Boycott: San Francisco, L.A., Oakland, and City of Sacramento, CA.