Author Topic: How does this happen?  (Read 817 times)

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Offline mcwoodduck

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How does this happen?
« on: June 03, 2009, 10:12:58 AM »
I have a Ruger M77/22 in 22Hornet.
When I first got it I mounted a way too big for the rifle scope on it.  A Bushnell 6-18X40 AO.
While playing with different ammo the rifle liked the 35 grain Hornady Ballistic tip.
Reciently I changed the scope to a 3-9X38 Weaver and now the 46 grain JHP by Winchester is the tack driver out of this rig and the 35 grainers have opened up the group size to no longer varmint.  2 -2.5 inches and the 46 grainers went from 1.5" to sub 1" at 75 yards.
What the heck causes this?  why would changing a scope change what the rifle likes to shoot?
Thanks.

Offline Bigeasy

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2009, 10:33:24 AM »
If I were to take a guess, I would say vibration.  Each load has a particular vibration frequency in a particular rifle.  Accuracy is effected by that vibration pattern.  Often, that is why a particular gun may like say, a 45 hrain bullet, but not a 35 grain bullet.  Velocity also has an effect on the vibration.  Browning realized this years back, and offered the BOSS system, which is nothing more the a threaded weight on the end of the barrel you can move up or down slightly.  By doing so, you change the vibration charectoristics of the barrel to match a load, not change the load to match the gun as we normally do. 

Since nothing else has changed on the gun, an the fact that it is sub minute of angle with some loads rules out stock warping, or barrel dammage, I would say it was the scope change.  The difference in size and weight between the two might have been enough to change the guns vibration pattern.  I doubt its defective scope or rings, as the rifle remains consistant in accuracy with certian loads.  My guess, anyway...

Larry
Personal opinion is a good thing, and everyone is entitled to one.  The hard part is separating informed opinion from someone who is just blowing hot air....

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2009, 11:34:59 AM »
Your Guess is as good as mine.
I will buy vibration.  as a result.
All I did to change the scope was stick it in a rifle vise, unscrew the 8 screws on the scope rings and mount the new scope and tighten the four screws back up the same way.
I still find it strange that the weight of the scope on the action was the change in barrel vibration but the more I think about it the more it makes sense.
Have any of you changed scopes on a rifle and had it change ammo or bullet weight prefrence?

Offline Yankee1

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2009, 12:20:36 PM »
Hi
  Larry nailed it. I tune super accurate rifles for air rifle bench rest competition.
The object of variable loads and bullet weights and devices such as Brownings Boss is to have the end of the barrel absolutely still at the time the bullet exits the muzzle. If the muzzle vibrates the groups open up. These vibrations travel up the barrel and slight changes can change whether the end of the barrel is moving or not. I build muzzle weights for the end of the barrel that I move
.005" of one inch at a time while monitoring group size. When the weight is in the correct position the group is all in the same hole.
                                           Yankee1

Offline Rangr44

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2009, 01:02:28 PM »
Barrel harmonics/vibration, and the control of them, is why some barrels do better free-floated, while others benefit from a pressure point near the forend tip.

The Ruger 77/22 action isn't as heavy as most CF actions, like Mausers or even Remingtons - so, sure, a change like the one you made could easily effect it.

.
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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2009, 06:15:26 AM »
OK,
I thought a rifle liking one bullet weight over another had more to do with twist than with the pressure of items on the action.  but it does make sense that the weight of the scope will dampen or heighten the vibration.
Thank you.

Offline Silvertp

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2009, 06:52:11 PM »
Mcwoodduck....if you are feeling inquisitive you could swap back to the larger scope and see if your rifle's taste for slugs changes again?  I can't come up with any idea better than vibration / harmonics, but hard to believe that a receiver mounted scope would have that much influence. 

Is the action bedded well?  Glassed or pillar bedded?  Just wondering if the action is relatively solid the wt / length of scope should have less influence...maybe better accuracy with both loads.

Well, that made my head hurt.  Good luck with your 77/22.

Silvertp

Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 05:48:16 AM »
NO.
I like the scope that is on it and it is accurate and all dialed in for Coyote, Javilina, and what ever else.
Heck in one of the Capstick books "Last Ivory Hunter" Walley Johnson talkes about one of his son's friends killing a Cape Buffalo with a 22 Hornet. 
One old guy where we used to hunt in Upstate NY used to tell about killing a "wild Heffer" with a 22 Hornet.
So ... Next roque Elephant that gets loose from a Circus.....
I'll still grab my Sako AIII in 375 H&H with 300 grain Monolith Solids.   ;D ;)

Offline Rex in OTZ

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Harmonics and Harmony
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2009, 09:57:32 AM »
I had seen a product advertised as a de-resonater that is a fat rubber type grommet that is slid on the barrel and placed in a sweet spot, could be a option to try one?
I do know due to the construction of light weight composit wrapped barrels are not only very ridged but dampen the vibrations resulting in pretty decent accuracy.

Having experence with propeller aircraft and am fasinated by metalurgy, I had dealt with crankshaft and propeller balancees, that if not addressed resulted in annoying vibrations causeing all sorts of problems with delicate gyros and causeing oil leaks and working rivets and cracked structure, A device called a Chadwick is used to determine where the inbalance is and corrections to be made, since the composit propeller by ther nature of construction dampen allot of felt vibration in the airframe yes its apples and oranges comparrison but its someting to consider, a rifle is a simple machine that produces vibrations just like any other, on a car a vibration that puts you all over the road at a certain speed with a type of tires gets your attention but a gun folks try to change scopes, crown muzzles, bed the stocks and any manner of tricks to quell this imbalance, its useally fixing the symptom of a problem because by changeing loads and bullet weights changes the vibration thresholds like switching from studded bias ply knobby tires to rain and snow radials at different speeds on the roads.

A fella could have consecutive models of a certain make & model rifle (two savage 110's in 30-06) one may be very tempramental and only shoots one particular set up and the other rifle as mild mannerd when a varity of different round's are tried its not a issue, the technology of produceing a uniform barrel is still a ways off, the barrel steel is rolled  useally in one direction and this sets a grain to the metal they broach the rifleing with the grain of the barrel or aginst? like rubbing yer wiskers the wrong way, do they orientate the blanks in the broacher the same all the barrels reamed exact same? broaching the rifleing against the grain may instill stress in the barrel that wouldent occor if done with the grain so any heating will cause these stresses to warp and since the broach traveld aginst the grain its microscopicly rough, even with lapping the bore and cyrogenicly anealing the stress in the barrel from manufacture the damage is still done like petting yer dog the wrong way.
Now you have to wonder yes you can bed the stock and free float the barrel and crown the barrel all contributeing to cutting down the tendency to imbalance the rounds, even adding a BOSS would help
thats why some barrels are inherently accurate and some are lemons that require allot attention like a fickle wife no matter what you do ther not happy and some guy's put up with the ole battle axe and some divorce ther guns at the first gunshow they can find.
barrel blanks roll off the production line they all have the potential to be accurate, not paying attention to metal grain at the boreing process is a start if its done incorectly it leaves a rough bore, then they swap some with and some aginst and they procede to broach  then you end up with some that are really bad and some that are passable then a few slip buy that were bored and reamed and broached all the same direction resulting in a inherantly accurate barrel before its even mated to a action, a well squared action and the rest is all gravey.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: How does this happen?
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2009, 10:01:28 AM »
glad you posted this , wonder how many new scopes have been returned because of such . I hace seen that rubber slip on vibration damper in several stores and cat.
If ya can see it ya can hit it !