Author Topic: Possible Rechamber - 357/44 Bain & Davis (Read 1226 times)

MtJerry · « **on:** September 29, 2005, 12:48:27 PM »

Any thoughts on this? The idea is to rechamber a 357mag barrel to 357/44 Bain & Davis.

Basically it's a 44mag case necked down to take a 357 bullet. Some of the data I have looked at shows a 180gr. bullet at 1600fps out of a 10" barrel. Hmmmmm .... that sounds interesting ....

Here is some info:

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w35744bd.html

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/35738Cal(9.2mm)/357%20Bain%20Davis%20Page%20109.pdf

http://www.again.net/~steve/jpg/cd35744baindavis.jpg

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:07:21 PM »

My advice would be to save yourself a lot of time, effort and money (like for dies/reamer) and go to a max or 35 Rem.

EDIT:
Jerry, if you just gotta have something different, the 357 Herret might be what you're looking for but I'm not sure if the chamber will clean up. I don't have a drawing of the Herret to reference but I think that the B&D will run out of steam well before the either the Max or the Herret especially with heavier bullets.

jerkface11 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:07:46 PM »

Sounds kinda weird. Why not go with 357 max or 35 rem?

Lone Star · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:08:25 PM »

It would be simpler to just rechamber to .357 Maximum; greater performance, cheaper carbide dies, no case forming, better suited to cast bullets. But wildcats have their appeal, and I admit to having more than a couple myself. I think it would be a good choice - T/C thought so too as they used to chamber the Contender for it....

mt3030 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:12:51 PM »

How does it's ballistics compare to the 357 Max? Would you gain anything? If they are the same, I like the idea of being able to use 357 Mag and 38 Spl in a pinch (in the Max only of course.)

Wally

Datil · « **Reply #5 on:** September 29, 2005, 01:17:24 PM »

I THINK 357 maximum, LOT CHEAPER , good proforemce.
MY 357 DIES work good with maxie brass they were made before any heard of Maxie! Midway has Remington 357 Maximum Brass.
Just my 2 cents. Marv.

JPH45 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 29, 2005, 03:04:43 PM »

That would be an interesting rechamber, but I don't think it would help with the long throat condition that the NEF 357 barrel suffers from. One could make up a 357/445 SM and end up with something very like.... well the 357 Herret. If I had it to do over again, that is probably where I would start. I've put a lot of thought into this, I'm leaving my 357 Max as is and am going to take my Christmas money and find myself a 35 Remington, a 356 AE Winchester, a 358 Win bolt or lever gun or a 35 Whelen. I'm too heavily invested in 358 molds to walk away from the caliber, so I'm going to find something in the caliber in another rifle. Don't know if that will solve anything, but it's the approach I'm takin'. Overall, I really like the 357 Max, it is a great carbine/rifle cartridge, easy to load for and feed, just mine won't shoot to the standard I want to hold with cast bullets.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #7 on:** September 29, 2005, 03:05:33 PM »

I get around 2000fps with 180 gr gas checked LBT style bullets out of my Max Thats in 35 Rem zone without the kick. I don't know if the B&D can get there and the reloading stuff cost a bit more.

MtJerry · « **Reply #8 on:** September 29, 2005, 03:40:44 PM »

Interesting replies - thanks everyone.

I had a friend bring this up today and there is a smith in town that has the reamer ... don't know anything more about than what I read and posted earlier today.

I'm still leaning towards the max as well ... just thought it would be an interesting discussion.

Thanks

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 29, 2005, 03:50:53 PM »

Too bad there ain't a 357 JDJ, or maybe there is and I just am not aware of it?

You'd be using a cartridge based on the 444 Marlin case at about 2.1 inches case length. I'm thinking a 444 marlin necked to 357 with no other changes.

Now you're talking some case capacity!

At least, after all the extra expense and time involved, you'd have something clearly superior to the B& , and the Max.

Plus the JDJ's give you enough neck to work with, not like the ridiculously short one on the 357/44.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #10 on:** September 29, 2005, 03:54:09 PM »

MtJerry, stay with the .357 Max if you must ream, and if not, just shoot .360 DW's out of your H&R .357 Mag as I do, you won't lose anything in performance!!!!....<><.... :grin:

Of course, if you feel the need to ream the chamber keep an eye peeled to Krochus's and hopefully my change, from .357 Mag to .35 Remington!!!!....<><.... :grin:

MtJerry · « **Reply #11 on:** September 29, 2005, 04:07:19 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret

if you must ream ... Of course, if you feel the need to ream

I don't necesssrily need to ream, I have the survivor series 357 with the 20" barrel. I dont think the 35 remington will preform very well out of that, and I'm not sure I will get the full performance of the 357max.

the 357/44 was a thought that might maximize the 20" barrel more than the others.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong ...

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #12 on:** September 29, 2005, 04:16:25 PM »

Quote from: MtJerry

Quote from: MSP Ret
if you must ream ... Of course, if you feel the need to ream

I don't necesssrily need to ream, I have the survivor series 357 with the 20" barrel. I dont think the 35 remington will preform very well out of that, and I'm not sure I will get the full performance of the 357max.

the 357/44 was a thought that might maximize the 20" barrel more than the others.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong ...

Why wouldn't it preform? My marlin 336 has a 20" tube. Again I'll have a 35 rem handi soon and we shall see.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2005, 04:20:33 PM »

Welll..

Your smith already has a reamer.

You might be able to cobble dies together on the cheap (my favorite way) by fitting a Lee collet sizer die in 44 mag with the right collet fot the 357 mag. I don't know if this setup would work for reducing the 44 mag to 357, if it's even do-able. You can probably find used dies at a show--I'm sure I saw a set at the last show in P'town when I was looking for 25-06 dies.

But then you still gotta deal with the neck--how much is there? is it even 1 caliber long?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #14 on:** September 29, 2005, 04:22:11 PM »

Hopefully Krochus, we will both have a .35 Remington Handi soon!!!!....<><.... :grin:

MtJerry · « **Reply #15 on:** September 29, 2005, 04:40:41 PM »

Quote from: cheatermk3

But then you still gotta deal with the neck--how much is there? is it even 1 caliber long?

Hmmm ... I dunno ... I guess I better figure that out first.

Thanks Mike

JPH45 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 29, 2005, 05:52:38 PM »

Quote from: MtJerry

Quote from: MSP Ret
if you must ream ... Of course, if you feel the need to ream

I don't necesssrily need to ream, I have the survivor series 357 with the 20" barrel. I dont think the 35 remington will preform very well out of that, and I'm not sure I will get the full performance of the 357max.

the 357/44 was a thought that might maximize the 20" barrel more than the others.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong ...

You'll get all the performance the 357 Max is capable of from a 20" barrel. It is possible that us 22" shooters are actually on the verge of if not actually losing velocity.

The 357/44 was an early attempt to get more velocity from 357 bullets for sillywets. The cartridge was only fit for use in the Contender, the bottleneck case would setback and tie up a revolver. The 357 Max is what the 357/444 wanted to be.

As to 357 JDJ's, How about a 358 JDJ??? JD left very few stones unturned. For those who fancy having a 375 JDJ in a Handi, get yousef' a 357 barrel and have it rechambered to the 358/444 (JD won't touch a Handi barrel, thinks the NEF is junk) There is only .017" that seperate the two diameters, that ain't enough to lose any sleep whatsoever over. Operating at 40,000 psi or so, the cartridge never really outstrips the 358 Winchester untill one begins to use 270 grain+ bullets At that point the extra capacity of the 358/444 begins to strut it's stuff, but in the Handi barrel, you lose your grip on things as the 1:18 twist just ain't quite fast enough to handle the real heavyweights of the 35 caliber. But it does amply well with 250 grainers, and as the Handi is a stronger action than the Contender the 358 Winnie could be surpassed by 100 fps or so. This would give us a 250 grainer at 2500 fps or so, nothing to sneeze at as that's 35 Whelen performance.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2005, 10:51:01 PM »

Quote from: Krochus

Why wouldn't it perform?

The speculation is that the 35 rem works best with heavier bullets and the twist rate of the Handi 357 barrel won't shoot them.

I've shot a 35 rem a few times out of a lever gun and IMO it's somewhat like a 30-30 in that for the velocity/energy you get from the cartridge the recoil seems excessive.

Ian

Lone Star · « **Reply #18 on:** September 30, 2005, 01:20:17 AM »

Quote

The 357/44 was an early attempt to get more velocity from 357 bullets for sillywets....

Uh, nope. This Bain & Davis cartridge was developed in 1964, eleven years before Elgin started IHMSA. Loading manual data shows it to be 100-200 fps behind the .357 Maxi with most bullets.

Gads, a 20" barrel is perfect for the .35 Remington! Mine with a 14" barrel performs very well, I killed a moose with it when I lived in Alaska. The .35 Rem has a small capacity case/large bore ratio for a rifle cartridge, it gains little in a longer rifle barrel. BTW, at normal pressures all the powder burns in the first few inches of the barrel; the velocity gains are due to a longer time the expanding gas has to work on the bullet, not because there is powder left to burn.

JPH45 · « **Reply #19 on:** September 30, 2005, 03:22:56 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star

Quote
The 357/44 was an early attempt to get more velocity from 357 bullets for sillywets....
Uh, nope. This Bain & Davis cartridge was developed in 1964, eleven years before Elgin started IHMSA. Loading manual data shows it to be 100-200 fps behind the .357 Maxi with most bullets

See guys, If you open your mouth around here, you;d best be prepared for someone to stick your foot in it. Thankfully I'm an old hand at hoof in mouth disease and I've now had yet another serving. Just goes to show that what ya think ya know may not be so. Thanks Lone Star

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #20 on:** September 30, 2005, 01:14:10 PM »

How about doing the 357/44 B&D but use 445 Supermag cases instead of 44mag? I'd let you call it the "357/445 Haywire" if you asked nicely. :grin:

Ian

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #21 on:** September 30, 2005, 01:28:04 PM »

I think we should make a .357/445 Haywire and jus shoot you with it and keep the name anyhow. That JDJ thingy sounds interestin.

mr.frosty · « **Reply #22 on:** October 01, 2005, 06:11:34 AM »

Why not the 445 Supermag?

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 01, 2005, 05:02:57 PM »

I've been looking around for load data for this round and haven't found any. I did find Mike Bellm's webpage wherein he touts his 358 Bellm which appears to be the 358 JDJ with a bit different shoulder angle and minimum body taper.

He gives load data there, one load that stood out for me was 44 grains of H322 behind a Hornady 200 gn RN bullet at 2400 fps. This is out of a super 14 contender barrel.

The 444 Marlin case is 2.2" and the 35 Whelen is 2.49 inches.

If I had a 357 barrel and wanted a 35 caliber powerhouse in a Handi, I believe I'd be giving the 358 JDJ some serious consideration.

Here's a link to Mike Bellm's site:
http://www.bellmtcs.com/BellmTriad/BellmTriad.htm

There's a chamber drawing of the 358 Bellm there too; I'm not sure if it'd be ok to copy and paste it here.

MtJerry · « **Reply #24 on:** October 01, 2005, 05:35:47 PM »

Quote from: mr.frosty

Why not the 445 Supermag?

That requires a .429 bore instead of a .357 bore.

Besides ... I already have a 445 Super mag

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #25 on:** October 02, 2005, 03:40:18 AM »

I think he was asking why not use 445SM brass instead of 44mag brass for the B&D rechamber.

The short answer is custom reamer, custom dies and a lack of established data. It would be a new wildcat and a lot of development would be required.

Ian

MtJerry · « **Reply #26 on:** October 02, 2005, 08:35:56 AM »

Quote from: Haywire Haywood

I think he was asking why not use 445SM brass instead of 44mag brass for the B&D rechamber.

The short answer is custom reamer, custom dies and a lack of established data. It would be a new wildcat and a lot of development would be required.

Ian

I see .. that would be too expensive for me I think ...

I was originally interested in this because I know a smith locally who has a reamer for it.