Author Topic: The H&R/NEF rest conflicts  (Read 976 times)

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Offline lostsniper308

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« on: October 07, 2005, 06:28:48 PM »
Ok i get that these guns like to have the rest under the hinge but what about off-hand does one hold the rifle under the hinge or on the fore-end. Also what about just resting on the fore-end, in the help thread here the advise said use an O-ring THEN rest under the hinge so with these rifles shoot well with a foreend rest?
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Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2005, 06:59:25 PM »
Some do...others don't...you have to see what works best with your shooting style and type of front rest you use...Off hand your not putting any pressure on the forearm..

Mac
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Offline JPH45

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2005, 07:02:22 PM »
This has always intrigued me too. I have a really fancy rest, a 4x6 block I throw two folded towels over, I rest the rifle forearm screw roughly centered on this block and shoot away. I get 5 bullets in a hole with my 38-55 or my 357 Max, and when I stand up on my hind feet and bang on a steel plate, the rifle shoots to the same point of aim. This is true no matter if I am using cast or jacketed. I also don't use the o-ring, I simply leave the forearm just a touch loose.

I find the Handi to be very sensitive to cant, Something about the stocks and scope height leave room for the rifle to roll around and scatter the shots about. I do all I can to hold the rifle and crosshairs the same shot to shot and I also set the scope up by shouldering it as I align the crosshairs for vertical. What I notice is that when I shoot off the bench, the rifle needs a touch of cant to make the crosshairs true to the vertical/horizontal. So there is some difference between how I naturally hold the gun when standing and sitting. For shootin' deer at 50 yards and less it don't make enough difference to matter. When shooting for the best I can shoot, I have to watch the cant, or the shots scatter.

I'm not convinced the o-ring does a lot, by the time one has shot enough to get frustrated and begin to seek solutions, one is also beginning to slow down and do more of the small things that contribute to shot to shot consistency that add up to better groups. Do o-rings and how the rifle is help make a difference? Absolutely. How much difference? Only each shooter can say. But a cant to 58 minutes, (just left of 12 o'clock), adds up to 3/4" left and 1/2" high at 50 yards. One or several such shots can make an otherwise good group really lousy.

I saw a leveling devise that can be used with a scope somewhere, don't now remember, but it could go a long way to making ones groups better.
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Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2005, 07:15:18 PM »
This what your talking about?



Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline DanielWGriggs

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 11:40:37 PM »
I guess I am just a little different myself. I set my scope level to the bore and adjust my offhand hold so the scope is/feels level to me. With the unlevel ground that I squirrel hunt on this is sometimes a real challenge. I do shoot enough off hand at various yardages/targets that I know the capabilities/limitations of my rifle/ammo/self.

after I get the laundry done today I will set up the backstop and targets for the air rifle and air pistol so I can shoot some prone position and offhand just to keep up the trigger time.

Trigger time is very important for my sanity and concentration. The wife says I get grouchy when I don't get my trigger time. Affects my sleep too.

Offline SmackFactor

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2005, 05:04:08 AM »
Hello Mac11700,
That level you show may work or not. It will depend on if the rifle is NOT canted. IF the rifle is canted it can show the scope as straight, but when the rifle is picked up and held straight the scope can still be off by whatever the rifle angle was.
If you use that it would be wise to make sure that the table, vise etc. that is holding the rifle is holding it perfectly vertical.

Regards,
Jerry

Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2005, 05:10:20 AM »
Hey Jerry: :D

I was thinking that too...I haven't used any of them before...too many distractions for me...I gennerally have my eyes glued to which part of the critter I want the bullet to hit and don't like taking my eyes off of it :)

Mac
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Offline DanielWGriggs

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2005, 05:56:01 AM »
Dang it. I knew I shouldn't have been staring at his horns. Now he has a 58 cal half circle out of the right base horn. lol

Mac is right we should be concentrating very hard on the spot we want to hit. seems the bullet gets real close to that spot every time when I do that.

I do love shooting. so many things to throw you off it's amazing the bullet gets anywhere near where we aim.

Offline lostsniper308

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2005, 02:25:37 PM »
so again it depends on the particular rifle.

How can i determine if my rifle is okay? I was at the range today and my .308 couldn't hold a group in any screw tightness! I blamed the scope my self. at 50yrds 150grs Federal Power-shoks surfed around a 5" area or so on far right another left then a center, center, little left, right, ok you get the idea.
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Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2005, 03:59:26 PM »
Quote

How can i determine if my rifle is okay?


It's nothing you can read in a book,magazine,newspaper article,or on the web...there is only 1 way you can find out...Shoot the durn thing and see which works best for you...try different positions,try different rest,try it standing up...try it laying down...try it on 1 knee...or both...trying sitting down...try it shooting off your knees...trying it leaning against a tree...Heck man...just go shoot it and see... :wink:

Mac
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Offline lik2hunt

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2005, 01:41:29 AM »
Quote
try different positions,try different rest,try it standing up...try it laying down...try it on 1 knee...or both...trying sitting down...try it shooting off your knees...trying it leaning against a tree


Try to come with a thousand rounds of ammo.........try explaining that to the wife......try sleeping with your butt hanging half off the bed........cause that's what the couch feels like. :)  :D
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Offline Cookiemann

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2005, 01:45:07 AM »
All this POA and POI talk reminds me of one thing I always try to keep in mind.  It was even used in a recent movie called The Patriot.  I nearly fell off the chair when I heard it, 'cause I was coached with this line when I was a boy.  "Aim small...Miss small"  Has worked well for me, and it's good advice.
NOT ON MY WATCH

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Offline lostsniper308

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2005, 04:22:50 AM »
Well i came up with an idea. Shoot a 3-4shot group without the fore-end and then with it on adjust the screw tightness untill the shots land on the other group or group similarly.
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Offline JPH45

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2005, 05:21:46 AM »
Quote from: Mac11700
This what your talking about?



Mac


Yeah, it was some kinda gizmo with a level on it to slip over the objective bell.....Figures you would find it at Natchezz
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Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2005, 06:14:17 AM »
Quote
Yeah, it was some kinda gizmo with a level on it to slip over the objective bell.....Figures you would find it at Natchezz


Sorry about that...it was the only one I had booked marked...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Mac11700

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2005, 06:34:04 AM »
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline JPH45

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2005, 07:25:58 AM »
Quote from: SmackFactor
Hello Mac11700,
That level you show may work or not. It will depend on if the rifle is NOT canted. IF the rifle is canted it can show the scope as straight, but when the rifle is picked up and held straight the scope can still be off by whatever the rifle angle was.
If you use that it would be wise to make sure that the table, vise etc. that is holding the rifle is holding it perfectly vertical.

Regards,
Jerry


Well, once the rifle is sighted in using the level, so long as the level is used to true the rifle it will shoot the same, because one is shooting to the level not the rifle's cant.   Daniel said better what I was trying to say. I set the scope up to how I hold the gun freehand then hold to that when I'm on the bench. It is just that there is enough difference between how the rifle fits betwen sitting and standing that I have to be conscience about it
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Offline JPH45

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2005, 07:30:45 AM »
Mac, I like that B square model, but it is ultimately a bench tool. In the woods I ain't gonna take the time to look at it, I want the rifle set up to how I hold. The level is a very good tool for eliminating a holding problem when evaluating a rifles/ammo accuracy. For that, it is invaluable.
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Offline Duce

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2005, 12:51:55 PM »
Gentlemen: The subject of cant or not canted is mute in my opinion, it's consistency is what counts. One fellow I knew mounted his scope turned 45 degrees, the crosshairs forming a V. His theory was set a squirrel's head in the V making a crude range finding system.

That's why I use a target that helps you align your crosshairs, something that has a defined + on it.  If you've ever shouldered someone else's rifle you may have noticed that the cross hairs aren't square, he just holds his rifle a little different. Remember consistency is the key, not just gadets. Good Shooting  :grin: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!

Offline MSP Ret

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2005, 02:03:22 PM »
:agree: , Well said Duce, and I agree. Simple is better, less to foul up. Also if there are any problems it's on your own shoulders, YOU have to learn to make it right with the first shot. That's when you become a rifleman. It may be just because I am old but I don't really like gadgets, never have anyway, even when I was younger. I was always more interested in learning how to do it right myself.
That said, I guess it makes me a hunter not a target shooter, .001 smaller on a target does not mean much to me, and after 32.5+ years "on the job" what counted was keeping them all in the "K5", not so much if the group was .5" or .6".  Just my way of looking at things I guess, not right or wrong, just my way. Of course when my job introduced the pistol  qualification "Master" designation over the pistol "Expert" designation I would have been very upset if I only qualified "Expert", although for the 15-20 years before they had that rating I was happy with "Expert", I quess somewhere deep down inside I must like small groups anyway!!!....<><.... :grin:
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Duce

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The H&R/NEF rest conflicts
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2005, 03:32:25 PM »
MSP: Thanks. Here's one of the targets I use, drew it up on a cad program and print it out on yellow index cards, color helps with glare.


Good Shooting:  :grin: <>< Duce:
What ever you'll put up with, is exactly what you'll get!!!!!