Remington bullet for the 45-70

[lonewolf5347]

I am  going to start loading for the H@R B C and far as a rifle bullet I think I will start with the Remington 405 SP ,Cabelas has a good price on them.
My powder of choice will be IMR3031 does anyone have any data for the above bullet?
I still am undecided  on which cast bullet to use would like stay in the 450 grainers lead bullet with a SP bullet nose for black powder

[Redhawk1]

I am  going to start loading for the H@R B C and far as a rifle bullet I think I will start with the Remington 405 SP ,Cabelas has a good price on them.
My powder of choice will be IMR3031 does anyone have any data for the above bullet?
I still am undecided  on which cast bullet to use would like stay in the 450 grainers lead bullet with a SP bullet nose for black powder

I have loaded the Remington 405 SP's for my Marlin 45-70. I was using 39 gr. of IMR4198 and the accuracy was the best I have seen from a lever action. I never tried IMR3031.

I sold my Marlin to a buddy and he is loading the same load I was because of the great performance he gets from that load. I know that is not what you asked but I thought I would share it with you.  

[lonewolf5347]

Thanks for the reply: by the way how did that bullet work in the field

[COYOTEKILLERMILLER]

Tried 3031 in my 4570, there sure did seem to be alot of unburned powder granules with the 3031.  
Try IMR4895 or RL-7.
Best of luck to you.
CKM

[Redhawk1]

Thanks for the reply: by the way how did that bullet work in the field

Several deer fell to this load, I never recovered a single bullet. So I would have to say great. Nice big holes on both sides.    :-D

[EsoxLucius]

The classic Elmer Keith 45-70 load for a 405 grain jacketed bullet is 53 grains of IMR 3031 for about 1850 fps from a 22" barrel.  Its a good one and documented by at least 10 sources, including Ken Waters.  Reduce by 10% and work up carefully.

I personally like H322 with the 405 grain Rem in my Marlin 1895 (55 grains compressed maximum for 1950 fps from a 22" barrel, adapted from Hodgdon #27).  However, that is a bit much in my Wesson and Harrington 1871 Buffalo Classic.  In that I found an accurate load for the 405 grain Rem of 52 grains of H335 (58 grains maximum, Hodgdon #26).

TWIMC, I wish people would be more careful about listing incomplete load information.  IMR and Hodgdon powder with the 4198 designation have different burn rates and are not interchangable.  I understand 39 grains of IMR 4198 under a 405 grain Rem is about a 28,000 CUP load but it would probably be a good idea to get in the habit of being more precise in powder description. JMHO

[Cottonwood]

I hope these will help you out.  Although most of us here can give you our pet loads.  I only load from data that are from publisized data.

IMR Load Data 45-70

Hodgdon Load Data 45-70

45-70 Loads MD Smith

[lonewolf5347]

Thanks for the  loading  data.
I did have something come to mind can you load black powder in the 45-70 case and use the Remington 405 SP bullet,would there be enough FPS with BP ?
   :-D

[Cottonwood]

Thanks for the  loading  data.
I did have something come to mind can you load black powder in the 45-70 case and use the Remington 405 SP bullet,would there be enough FPS with BP ?
   :-D

I know some BPCR shooters that will tell you there will be blowby with BP as the propelant.  JSP bullets don't have lube grooves BUT why couldn't you put a lube cookie under the 405-gr bullet like they do for paper patched bullets.  After all the copper jacket is just a patched bullet but with copper instead.

You will still need to compress your BP with a powder compression die/plug to keep compression uniform and consistant.

[Redhawk1]

TWIMC, I wish people would be more careful about listing incomplete load information.  IMR and Hodgdon powder with the 4198 designation have different burn rates and are not interchangable.  I understand 39 grains of IMR 4198 under a 405 grain Rem is about a 28,000 CUP load but it would probably be a good idea to get in the habit of being more precise in powder description. JMHO

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I just left it out. I try and make it a point to include all the numbers and letters. My mistake, but either the H4198 or the IMR4198 will result in about the same results.

So what does TWIMC mean??? Could you be a little more precise in description.  :-D

[EsoxLucius]

http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=TWIMC

[cwlongshot]

I would advise against this bullet if you want top velocities. It is a good bullet and will work wonderfully if kept with in its intended velocity. I use 1600 as the magic number. Any higher and I go to the Speer 400 SP. This bullet will hold together on bone at 2000 fps. Got a couple Black bears to prove it!! :grin:

 Good luck,
 CW

[EsoxLucius]

The 405 grain Remington JSP has a harder core than the 400 grain Speer FNSP and is actually just as well suited to 1600+ fps.

Caliber, Cartridge, Mass, Bullet Type, Impact Velocity, Expanded Diameter, Depth of Penetration, Retained Weight  

.458", 45-70, 400 gr, Speer FN, 1758 fps, 0.950 in, 11 in, 364 gr / 91 %

.458", 45-70, 405 gr, Remington SP, 2000 fps, 0.87 in, 13.8 in, 390 gr / 96 %

Source: Jamison and Strandberg

[Thebear_78]

I really like H322 powder and starline brass with the 405gr remington bullet for 1925fps out of my guide gun.  It will do just fine on hogs, deer, or black bear but I normally use something a little stronger for moose and big bears.

[Redhawk1]

I really like H322 powder and starline brass with the 405gr remington bullet for 1925fps out of my guide gun.  It will do just fine on hogs, deer, or black bear but I normally use something a little stronger for moose and big bears.

I will be switching to H322 for my 400 gr. Barnes Originals for my Ruger #1.  I was using IMR4198 for my Marlin and my Contender, I don't have either of those guns anymore.

[gcf]

In my Ruger #1, I have found that 47.0 grn of IMR 3031 under a Cast Performance 405GC, will group at - or just under 0.75" at 100.  Burns clean & hits hard.

53.0 grn IMR 3031 under a Hornady 300 JHP (w/ a good crimp) will group comparably well. Or maybe a bit better.... Note that this a Level #3 load (for Ruger #1 & bolt actions), & may not be safe for all rifles.

Lately I have found that minimum loads (36.5 grn) of IMR 4198 under just about any 300 - 350 jacketed bullet tried to date, makes a REAL easy shootin', acceptably accurate, practice round. Surprised me, because the load volume was so low.

[cwlongshot]

The 405 grain Remington JSP has a harder core than the 400 grain Speer FNSP and is actually just as well suited to 1600+ fps.

Caliber, Cartridge, Mass, Bullet Type, Impact Velocity, Expanded Diameter, Depth of Penetration, Retained Weight  

.458", 45-70, 400 gr, Speer FN, 1758 fps, 0.950 in, 11 in, 364 gr / 91 %

.458", 45-70, 405 gr, Remington SP, 2000 fps, 0.87 in, 13.8 in, 390 gr / 96 %

Source: Jamison and Strandberg

 Statistics, as you quote above, make wonderful reading. As long as someone make a dime hawking this or that, in my mind that data is suspect. I prefer personal experience, experiences I have had or from hunters/friends I know well and respect.
 
 My personal experience with this bullet , ON GAME is the reason for my recommendation. I have had three of these bullets come apart on bones at high velocities. Two where whitetails and one was a Blk Bear. None where overly large and all where shot under almost identical circumstances. All where shot at under 50 yrds with the same load from the same rifle, but two different shooters.

 Conversely, I have made at least a dozen kills on various game with the 400gr Speer bullet and never even a hint of over expansion.

 PLEASE do not get me wrong, I love this bullet, it expands wonderfully and consistently. But for my use, a really tough game bullet, capable to be driven at high velocitys,  it is NOT.

CW

[Cottonwood]

Yep, I will take this kind of expansion all day long.  This has massive energy transfer and sheer knock down power.

[EsoxLucius]

Well, I obviously can't account for other's experience, but a half a dozen deer, a 350 lbs feral hog and an 1100 lbs moose have fallen to my 1950 fps 405 grain Remington JSP load.  The moose was particularly interesting as the 125 yard front quartering shot smashed a shoulder and penetrated another 30 or so inches to a 2" exit.  Don't know if the jacket made it out, but I really don't care if it did.

Having a bullet "come apart on bone" when the animal was obviously dispatched don't say much to me.  If you need picture perfect mushrooms and retained jackets to kill an animal, I guess that is your problem.  Tell me about animals lost after a well placed shot with a "high velocity" 405 grain Remington JSP and maybe I'll listen.

[cwlongshot]

I am biting my tounge here.....These are meerly my experiences, take them as they where offered or dont.

 You obviously misunderstood my posts....Of course I do not need a perfect mushroom. But when a bullet comes apart and nothing penetrates the other side of the animal. You have a problem with that bullet or the velocity you are propelling it at.
 
 Thankfully I have never lost an animal because of this bullet. At 405 grns even the pieces carried enough energy to penetrate into the vitals to kill the animal. It dosent change the fact that the bullet coming apart is bullet failure. Drop the velocity and the over expantion stops, simple as that.

I am glad your experiences with this bullet, at high velocities,  have been favoriable, mine have not. I wish you nothing but the best.

CW

[Lone Star]

... an 1100 lbs moose have fallen to my 1950 fps 405 grain Remington JSP load.  The moose was particularly interesting as the 125 yard front quartering shot....

I gotta laugh at this.   :-D    CW says that the 405 Remington bullet won't work well above ca. 1650 fps at close range.  If either had bothered to check, he'd find that Esox's moose load produces about 1550 fps at 125 yards - right in agreement with CW's experience.  As experienced hunters know, it is the impact velocity which matters, not the muzzle velocity.  Sometimes it pays not to jump to conclusions when judging the experiences of others....and biting your tongue can be a good idea too.    

[EsoxLucius]

The 350 lbs feral hog was coming straight at me and was shot at under 20 yards under the chin.  The bullet penetrated the entire length of the animal and exited.  Three of the deer I shot were under 30 yards through one or both front shoulders.  All bullets exited and the animals expired quickly.  If someone has a story about an animal lost after a well placed shot with the 405 grain Remington JSP I'd like to hear it.

[Gordy]

Any shot where "the animal expired quickly" is my type of shot. I think hunters owe it to the animal to make that shot every time. I have been scorned at for not taking a long shot, the way I see it is that it was "MY" shot I did'nt take. Regards - Gordy.