Sloppy-06

[cheatermk3]

I was just trying the fit of my new(to me) 30-30 barrel on several of my frames.  I found it to be a perfect fit on my 25-06 ultra frame.

The bad news is that when I put the -06 barrel back on it's frame I noticed that, with the forend off the rifle, it has noticeable up-and-down and VERY noticeable side-to-side wiggle.  

This is a factory rig that I bought 2nd hand and looked over pretty good (I thought) before I purchased it, I don't recall there being any slop in it at all; but I'm not positive I checked this with the forend off as well as with it installed.  The up-and-down slop is barely noticeable with the forend installed; the s-to-s wiggle is not at all apparent.

When I checked it out I noticed that the release lever had zero play in it when the piece was locked up.  I had the proprietor, a decent 'smith, stone the underlug into better engagement as it was obvious that there was very little engagement of the latch on the lug.  When I picked it up a few days later he told me that he'd only needed a few strokes of the stone to even up the latch engagement; the release lever still had no play in it with the action locked up.  It remains so today.

I've shot 70 factory remington rounds through it and polished the bore.  

Could this frame have loosened up after only 70 factory rounds?

Or maybe I was totally blind when I agreed to the purchase and it's been this way all along?

I'm considering returning it to NEF for evaluation/repair.

[mitchell]

some thing be wrong.


you can either just fit the barrel yourself or just call nef , they will most liky give you a call tag and have you send it in. and hey while its in there get an other barrel

[quickdtoo]

If'n you wanta fiddle with it, you could use Fred's devcon modification on it....and if not, just send it into H&R for them to fix it. FWIW, I don't have any frame/barrels that have slop in em without the forend installed, I don't think the play twix frame/barrel is acceptable. You might check with H&R to verify the frame is definately an SB2. Does the serial number on the frame match the engraved number on the underlug? Of course, anyone could engrave it with little work. :cry:

[trotterlg]

When you put the forarm on it pushes the barrel back against the frame which makes it seem to be locked up better than it really is.  The fitting instructions in the sticky are misleading, a quarter inch engagement  of the latch shelf is way too much and will lead to a bad latch up (sorry to whoever wrote this, but you are wrong, an eigth inch is plenty).  You may help your self a slight amount by removing the latch release lever and taking a little off the stop it has on it, the stop may be preventing the latch from fully moving up to the end of it's travel.  The latch lever stop is a little bump that hits the cutout in the frame just to the right of the hammer.  Because of the way the latch engages the shelf very small amounts of change will generate very large amounts of latch engagement change.  Be careful when takeing anything off the shelf when fitting the barrel.  I learned to first start by using a very flat stone to take off all the tooling marks from the rear of the barrel, this makes the latch up much more positive.  Also, I know it is a pain, but remove the ejector parts before fitting the barrel, the tension of the ejector can also fake you out as to how good the barrel really fits.  I learned these things after trashing one 17HMR barrel while fitting it to an SB-2 frame to re-chamber it to a .17 remington.  It is finished and on it's way back to me now, and I am on my way out to Sea for 3 weeks, so I won't be able to play with it, Big bummer ;^( .  Larry

[Mac11700]

When you put the forarm on it pushes the barrel back against the frame which makes it seem to be locked up better than it really is. The fitting instructions in the sticky are misleading, a quarter inch engagement  of the latch shelf is way too much and will lead to a bad latch up (sorry to whoever wrote this, but you are wrong, an eigth inch is plenty).  You may help your self a slight amount by removing the latch release lever and taking a little off the stop it has on it, the stop may be preventing the latch from fully moving up to the end of it's travel.  The latch lever stop is a little bump that hits the cutout in the frame just to the right of the hammer.  Because of the way the latch engages the shelf very small amounts of change will generate very large amounts of latch engagement change.  Be careful when takeing anything off the shelf when fitting the barrel.  I learned to first start by using a very flat stone to take off all the tooling marks from the rear of the barrel, this makes the latch up much more positive.  Also, I know it is a pain, but remove the ejector parts before fitting the barrel, the tension of the ejector can also fake you out as to how good the barrel really fits.  I learned these things after trashing one 17HMR barrel while fitting it to an SB-2 frame to re-chamber it to a .17 remington.  It is finished and on it's way back to me now, and I am on my way out to Sea for 3 weeks, so I won't be able to play with it, Big bummer ;^( .  Larry

No-Sir...you are the one who is wrong...directly from the Helpfull Hints...

Once you get that tolerance, you need to check the latch engagement. Clean, then smoke the latch shelf on the barrel with a candle, then mount the barrel and close the action, you should have approx 1/8" latch engagement on the latch shelf as shown by the mark in the smoked shelf. If it barely engages, hone the latch shelf on the barrel with a stone to remove some metal and smooth the surface, check it again, continue until you get good engagement. Work slow and check often, once you go too far, it's gonna be a lot of work to get back to a usable barrel.

Perhaps when you get backl...you might read it more carefully...

Mac

[cheatermk3]

I'm gonna call C/S at NEF today and talk to them.

I re-read Fred M's barrel fitting tips and I really think that the barrel on these high-intensity cartridges needs to be bedded in the frame.  The question in my mind is whether to send it to the factory first or just do it.

Either way I think it needs to be done.

Does anyone out there have a high pressure type barrel that has several hundred rounds through it?  There must be-- has your lockup loosened up?  I have no way of knowing how many rounds the original owner put through but Marcus (the smith mentioned above) said that he sold it to the original owner who traded it in a couple of weeks later.  Judging by the way it strung vertically before I lapped the bore, I can understand why he got rid of it.  I also think he'd shot at least 2 boxes of shells through it without cleaning it judging by the dark blue color of the solvent-soaked patches I pushed through it when I got it home.

[Mac11700]

It will be interesting to hear what NEF says on this.Normally the won't honor a second hand barrel outright and may charge for repair....Do the serial numbers match on the frame and barrel lug?

All of my Handi's have some play(up & down) on the release latch..none are what you could say is " tight"..and I've fitted a few using Quickdtoo's suggestions..but haven't used any Devcon on mine yet...Have you tried shimming it with a small piece of a soda cam on the hinge pin?.You can cut the cans quite easily to fit and try it first and see if it helps..I just finished fitting a 270 Ultra Comp barrel on my 25-06 frame..the barrel has been around...and was bought as new by a member here..but has 2 different serial numbers on the lug...when I asked NEF about it...was told it might have come from a "take Off " barrel...when I got it..and cleaned it good..I found it would eject any unfired shells...come to find out someone had tried to make it an extractor..and filed down the wrong part..so.I ordered all the ejector parts from Brownells and replaced them..works fine now...so you can never really tell what's gone on with a barrel secondhand..or even sometimes from the factory...I too had to hone the latch shelf down..to get a good lock up on mine..

Getting them to fit isn't that difficult..so if they won't repair it..do it yourself..just remember to go slow with it..checking the fit often..

Mac

[trotterlg]

Mac: We do have some slow access on the boat, and I guess I should have said an eigth inch instead of a quarter inch, so I am sorry I mis quoted the sitcky on that part.  That said, the eigth inch is most likely at the very top end of the lock up without running out of travel on the latch and or latch release lever with some handi's.  If you have an eigth inch don't go any more or you will most likely be doing some fixing.  I carefully measured mine with dial calipers, when I hit an eigth inch the latch release ran out of travel and I had a bad lockup.  You may have had another experience, but others need to know some rifles will not be able to get a full eigth inch of latch travel and still work propery.  On the vertical stringing 0-6, If locking it up tighter doesn't help, try loading a round and then pointing the rifle up and thumping the butt on the table, then slowly lower it and shoot the target. I had a rifle once with a weak fireing pin strike and it would vertical string like crazy unless the powder was all at the rear of the case.  Handi's have light pin strikes in general, so it may be the problem.  Larry

[cheatermk3]

I didn't have time to call CS today and may not get a chance until I get back from Vegas next week(son finally getting married).  

I'm waffling on sending it back/trying to fit it myself.  I believe that my best result would come from fixing whatever may be wrong with the latch/lockup and then bedding the barrel in the frame ala Fred M's method.  The trouble with that is I'm less than fully confident that I understand all of the nuances of the instructions on his website.

Not to mention, I'm a klutz when it comes to tools.  I know good work when I see it but I'm a better wordsmith than I am a gunsmith(I ain't no kinda gunsmith).

I may download Fred's accurizing tips and show them to Marcus and see whether he thinks he can help with the latch work; I think I can do the bedding OK.  

If I understand what trotter is saying, any further stoning of the underlug in the latch shelf area should only be done if the latch itself is not out of travel.  To determine this the mechanism has to be disassembled.  This is where I draw the line.  I ain't gonna try getting it apart because I KNOW I will not be able to get it back together again.  

So I guess I'll be talking to NEF and Marc and doing some thinking too.

Thanks for the comments, and if you guys have any more suggestions, I'm listening.

[trotterlg]

You can tell if the latch if out of travel by first closing the assembled rifle and measuring the amount of free play in the latch release lever, then take out the barrel and measure the amount of free play in the latch release lever, if they are the same you are out of latch travel.  if the latch release lever is tight in both cases you may gain some latch travel by filing a tiny amount off the little stop on the latch release lever that contacts the frame beside the hammer, this requires you to drive the latch release pin part way out of the frame to remove the latch release lever.  It is really very ease, no springs or anything.  Larry

[vincewarde]

I fitted two barrels to my frame - and both have a lot more the 1/8in of engagement.  I thought that as long as it locked up tight (which it does - no play and can't pull out a .0015 gauge) than more engagement was a good thing.
 
I removed very little material from the latch shelf a little bit at a time.....
 
Did I mess this up?

[Mac11700]

Did I mess this up?

How do they shoot?

Mac

[trotterlg]

If it is tight and you still have play in the release lever with the rifle locked up things are fine.  The rifles will start getting to the end of the latch travel with about 1/8th inch engagement.  Depending on the latch shelf position it may be more but it may also be less, the trick is to look at both the latch shelf engagement and the amount of travel left in the latch which can be estimated by the amount of free play in the latch release lever.  Larry

[cheatermk3]

With the barrel locked up, there is no travel or free play in the latch lever.  It is all the way up.

The same is true with no barrel on the frame, or in the open position.

When I bought the rifle I mentioned this to Marc and we looked at the shelf, it appeared that the latch was only making contact on the left 1/3 of the shelf.

After I posted this morning I was looking at several of my frames and comparing them to the -06 frame,something else I noticed about the -06's frame is that the mark on the standing breech made by the ejector is not even and as wide as the ejector itself, as it is on all of my other frames.  It is instead about a fat 16th wide and only showing to the left of the hole for the firing pin.

I also notice that with the trigger pulled the firing pin seems to be protruding about half as far as the pins on my other 3 recent production frames.  I have had one fail to fire that went off at the second strike; with all the stuff going on with this rifle, as well as in my life, I forgot about the light strike until this morning.

I really think that this one needs a trip to Gardiner.  I just hope that they don't make an issue of the few strokes Marcus put on the latch shelf.  I'm guessing that if I don't mention it to CS, the factory 'smith that actually inspects the rifle will ignore it since there is obviously an alignment issue here as well as a bad or poorly-fitted latch.  The shelf itself shouldn't be an issue even though a close examination will reveal the smoother-than=factory area that has been stoned; it is a very minor area of the shelf.  In fact it may well go unoticed if I send it with a bit of fouling on it.

I gotta go down to Vegas Sunday for my son's wedding, and won't be back until late wednesday so this has to go to the back burner for now.

[Mac11700]

It's definatly out of square in the hinge area..and if you try to true it up as needed..in all likelyhood have to shim it out quite a bit..and then refit it correctly.

Quickdtoo knows all about this on a couple he has already repaired..

Mac

[vincewarde]

Mac - unfortunately I do not yet know how they shoot.  I struggle with a chronic back problem and I am coming off of 11 weeks on the floor.  I'm now improving, but I haven't had a chance to go out to the range since I fitted them.
 
I do have a bit of play in the release level when the action is closed, the action is tight, and it takes quite a bit of travel on the release lever to open the action.  So I think I'm OK

[Mac11700]

Ouch... :eek: ..I do know about bad backs..that I do....I hope you get to feeling better..

I had about the same thing with my new 270 Ultra comp...followed the FAQ's fitted it real nice..my 1st one wasn't didn't turn out so good..and Quickdtoo repaired it..

On my new 270UC..I had to stone the latch shelf as well..taking a little at a time and smoking the shelf every couple of stone strokes on it..it had about the same amount of latch play as you discribe..and it locks up fine and doesn't pop open anymore..Shot it today..got it on paper at least..and going back in 8 hours to finish sighting it in..

Mac